How many water jugs to stop a .38 SP +P

[Tom NJ]

After seeing this video where a .44 Magnum was stopped with just four water balloons 44 Magnum with balloons , I decided to see if I could stop a much weaker round with three one-gallon milk jugs filled with water.

The gun is a Ruger SP101 357 Magnum with a 2.25" barrel, and the round is a Speer Gold Dot .38 SP +P 135gr JHP Short Barrel. Here are the results:

38 SP +P with water jugs

So how many jugs does it take?

Tom

 

[billt460]

While this type of videos are fun to watch and make, they don't say much as far as real world killing power. For example, a 12 ga. Trap load won't penetrate much in the way of water filled jugs, ballistic gelatin, or drywall. Yet if it hits a human from across the average living room, it's safe to say he's going nowhere except to the hospital at best, or to the morgue in fact.

 

[OtisBlkR1]

that's a pretty hot round.

 

[bubbatime]

If the round expands than usually about 3 jugs. If it doesn't expand it could go 5 or 6 jugs or more.

 

[Tom NJ]

I wasn't trying to test the stopping power of the round, I just wanted to recover the round to see how it expanded, and of course for the fun of it.

Tom NJ

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: billt460
While this type of videos are fun to watch and make, they don't say much as far as real world killing power. For example, a 12 ga. Trap load won't penetrate much in the way of water filled jugs, ballistic gelatin, or drywall. Yet if it hits a human from across the average living room, it's safe to say he's going nowhere except to the hospital at best, or to the morgue in fact.


As I understand it you want the projectile to completely disperse all it's energy (stop) quickly.
The best stopping power will not be in the round that can go through 5 bodies.
That is why as Bubba says it's about expansion not penetration.

 

[KCJeep]

Interesting. Bullet performance makes so much difference, a .380 fmj would probably zip right through 6 jugs, but a radical hollow point maybe two.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
As I understand it you want the projectile to completely disperse all it's energy (stop) quickly. The best stopping power will not be in the round that can go through 5 bodies. That is why as Bubba says it's about expansion not penetration.


Howdy. I'm a quasi-ballistics expert and firearms expert. Let me point you in the correct direction.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
As I understand it you want the projectile to completely disperse all it's energy (stop) quickly.


Having a bullet stop quickly has nothing to do with stopping power. The FBI recommends 12"-18" penetration of expanded hollow points for law enforcement. This "magical number" is deep enough to hit vital organs but not too deep as to have over penetration that can hit bystanders. Accidentally hitting a bystander by a LEO is bad for business.

As far as energy dispersion goes, there is practically no discernible difference between the commonly used service caliber pistol rounds. So a 9MM gold dot performs similarly to a .40 gold dot, which will perform similarly to a .45ACP gold dot, etc. You have to step into the realm of rifle and shotgun rounds to really see the difference.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
The best stopping power will not be in the round that can go through 5 bodies.


Incorrect. A .50BMG will go through 5 bodies and easily has more stopping power than a .380ACP/9MM/.45ACP that stops in the body.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
That is why as Bubba says it's about expansion not penetration.


I never said that. The most important aspect of ballistics and terminal performance is actually hitting your target. The second most important aspect is having enough penetration to hit a vital organ. Followed lastly and distantly by expansion of a JHP.

 

[Blaze]

Watch what a .45 Colt round vs water jugs can do!! This is Buffalo Bore heavy ammo.

 

[OneEyeJack]

Stopping power is an interesting concept. Many years ago I was a paramedic working part time while going to college. We responded to a gun fight between several civilians. One participant was armed with a 22LR pistol and shot 3 people in the chest area each with one shot and even though it did not kill them right then, they were immediately out of the fight. They were too busy trying to survive to carry on. The man with the 22 survived the fight untouched. Another participant armed with a 357 fired at least 18 rounds and hit one person in the arm and that person returned fire with a 380 and killed him instantly with the one and only shot he fired that struck him almost dead center in the heart between the 4th and 5th ribs, a lucky shot for sure. The shot was so effective at stopping his pump that there was not a drop of blood anywhere, just an entrance would.

It appeared to me then, that the absolute most important factor was shot placement under pressure. All this talk about calibers and bullet performance is completely worthless without training under simulated conditions and lots of practice.

 

[Blaze]

I agree. I can't shoot one of those short barrel snubs (.357) at all. I'm just not good with high recoil type guns...a .38, .380,.45 colt/standard loads or 9mm no problem.

 

[double vanos]

A 22 LR placed on target multiple times (via practice and low recoil) has killed many. Doesn't even have to a 22 mag....

 

[SilverC6]

I consider my .22 mag Smith 351PD revolver a very lethal weapon.

Primarily because, due to its light weight, you are likely to have it in your pocket.

But my .357 M&P 340 is also pretty light too.

You can't beat those little revolvers for concealed carry.

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: clarkflower
As I understand it you want the projectile to completely disperse all it's energy (stop) quickly. The best stopping power will not be in the round that can go through 5 bodies. That is why as Bubba says it's about expansion not penetration.


Howdy. I'm a quasi-ballistics expert and firearms expert. Let me point you in the correct direction.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
As I understand it you want the projectile to completely disperse all it's energy (stop) quickly.


Having a bullet stop quickly has nothing to do with stopping power. The FBI recommends 12"-18" penetration of expanded hollow points for law enforcement. This "magical number" is deep enough to hit vital organs but not too deep as to have over penetration that can hit bystanders. Accidentally hitting a bystander by a LEO is bad for business.

As far as energy dispersion goes, there is practically no discernible difference between the commonly used service caliber pistol rounds. So a 9MM gold dot performs similarly to a .40 gold dot, which will perform similarly to a .45ACP gold dot, etc. You have to step into the realm of rifle and shotgun rounds to really see the difference.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
The best stopping power will not be in the round that can go through 5 bodies.


Incorrect. A .50BMG will go through 5 bodies and easily has more stopping power than a .380ACP/9MM/.45ACP that stops in the body.

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
That is why as Bubba says it's about expansion not penetration.


I never said that. The most important aspect of ballistics and terminal performance is actually hitting your target. The second most important aspect is having enough penetration to hit a vital organ. Followed lastly and distantly by expansion of a JHP.


Everyone is a quasi-ballistics expert and firearms expert. Let me point you in the correct direction.
This is why people use hollow point bullets

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I consider my .22 mag Smith 351PD revolver a very lethal weapon.

Primarily because, due to its light weight, you are likely to have it in your pocket.

But my .357 M&P 340 is also pretty light too.

You can't beat those little revolvers for concealed carry.


I agree. I carry a Seecamp in my front pocket. http://seecamp.com/
The 32 in your pocket is better than the 44 you left at home.

 

[PhillyJoe]

There was a similar demonstration on the History channel with regard to D-Day. While the troops were completely exposed, the water did provide some protection and would stop a bullet if it hit the water 5 feet in front of the soldiers.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
Everyone is a quasi-ballistics expert and firearms expert. Let me point you in the correct direction.
This is why people use hollow point bullets


No need to get offended. I just corrected some of your statements that needed correcting.

As to my experience level, I can categorically say with confidence that I live, eat, sleep, and breath firearms, personal defense, ballistics, and 2A causes. While not a "court certified ballistics expert", I could be if I jumped through the hoops.

10 years experience as an LEO. Attended numerous ballistics workshops as well as running dozens of my own to include shooting gel through barriers such as auto glass, car doors, etc. Armorer on several platforms. Seen numerous shootings (too many to count) Attended dozens of autopsies of shooting victims. I personally shoot over 30K rounds a year. One year I shot over 60K rounds. My personal budget last year JUST for guns, ammo, training, and supplies was somewhere in the neighborhood of $30,000 I'm guessing.

Luckily for me and the wife, we make a nice 6 figure income with lots of discretionary spending funds that allows me to have this lifestyle.

Trust me, I'm keenly aware of what hollow points are and why people use them. In the future, try not to get offended when someone with more knowledge of the topic at hand chimes in.

 

[Lapham3]

I was a high speed photog in the 'bombs and bullets' business. Of course we wanted all kinds of 'data' in our various testing but for bullets and fragments the ballistic gelatin formula was developed for a consistant target. It gave a reasonable result from the various dynamic parameters and I'm sure internet searching would turn up some of it.

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Trust me, I'm keenly aware of what hollow points are and why people use them. In the future, try not to get offended when someone with more knowledge of the topic at hand chimes in.


I am not offended. I just don't agree. (If you don't know me, how do you know you have more knowledge of the topic?)

All of this is widely disputed by even the authors of books on the subject. Some like speed and light, some like slow and heavy. A fast round that goes right through,does not expand may do nothing.
A Buick has no penetration but great stopping power

 

[OneEyeJack]

Originally Posted By: clarkflower
All of this is widely disputed by even the authors of books on the subject. Some like speed and light, some like slow and heavy. A fast round that goes right through,does not expand may do nothing.
A Buick has no penetration but great stopping power

There is one aspect of shooting that is not often considered when evaluating a certain caliber and bullet. If a 22LR bullet hits you anywhere near a vital spot and just goes through to the other side and out with a very narrow wound cavity and little shock damage then one might consider that it's not a knock down hit and they could be correct. There's a problem with that kind of thinking because that person if not on drugs or driven by some overwhelming passion is out of the fight. Read my earlier posting in this thread on that very topic. I was there and those 3 tough guys armed with big caliber guns and a rifle were absolutely done are far as being any kind of threat after being hit by 22LR rounds. 2 of the 3 survived. It was not like a movie where someone gets hit and continues to fight. In real life even these little hits hurt like the dickens and your focus changes, you try to continue to live and that means that you might not be effective at returning fire while your trying to breathe and stop the bleeding.