do the oems say toyota say what spec the air filter must filter to?
what is the oem air filter spec
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im sure you can find it somewhere but in general new car companies like the filters less restrictive because better flowing air filters give better mpg's and better flowing oil filters let the oil flow fast.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
im sure you can find it somewhere but in general new car companies like the filters less restrictive because better flowing air filters give better mpg's and better flowing oil filters let the oil flow fast.
Do you have any sources you can cite for those claims?
First, your claim that less restrictive air filters give better mpgs is flat-out false in regards to modern fuel injected vehicles. See Effect of Intake Air Filter Condition on Light-Duty Gasoline Vehicles. And if better flowing air filters improve mpgs, why would manufacturers such as GM install filter restriction gauges and tell you to change the filter per the gauge reading, which could have you keep the same filter in place for 50k+ miles?
And the second statement is pretty ridiculous as well. The oil filter is not the oiling system's primary flow restriction point.
im sure you can find it somewhere but in general new car companies like the filters less restrictive because better flowing air filters give better mpg's and better flowing oil filters let the oil flow fast.
Do you have any sources you can cite for those claims?
First, your claim that less restrictive air filters give better mpgs is flat-out false in regards to modern fuel injected vehicles. See Effect of Intake Air Filter Condition on Light-Duty Gasoline Vehicles. And if better flowing air filters improve mpgs, why would manufacturers such as GM install filter restriction gauges and tell you to change the filter per the gauge reading, which could have you keep the same filter in place for 50k+ miles?
And the second statement is pretty ridiculous as well. The oil filter is not the oiling system's primary flow restriction point.
I don't see a real spec quoted on the box or in an owner's manual. So, in general it must be no big deal.
Look it up yourself... I go to many classes put on from most of the auto manufactures and they say it all the time because i personally bring up this subject whenever i get a chance at my engine rebuilding seminars. These are the techs who know not guess i asked a honda rep why their filters are not like 99% and he also stated like i say all the time. FLOW!
So if you think the post i wrote is ridiculous you know more than the people that build the engines because i talk with them all the time, in a matter of fact my next seminar which is in two weeks i will be getting an award of excellence in engine rebuilding.We do them all not just a lot of them we rebuild every major automotive engine there is and some of them we have to rebuild and write a report as to what happened to the engine in question for later examining or court proceedings.
So if you think the post i wrote is ridiculous you know more than the people that build the engines because i talk with them all the time, in a matter of fact my next seminar which is in two weeks i will be getting an award of excellence in engine rebuilding.We do them all not just a lot of them we rebuild every major automotive engine there is and some of them we have to rebuild and write a report as to what happened to the engine in question for later examining or court proceedings.
there is no spec for the air filter, because there are no spec's for automotive air filters.
to: crazyoil your statements aren't factual.
Fuel injection will compensate for almost any air filter restriction. Except at full throttle.. So a dirty air filter doesn't hurt Mpg on modern vehicles.
Also oil filters don't restrict flow, if there was a restriction they would go into bypass.. Since oil pumps are usually positive displacement.
You could claim you work at NASA but don't try to claim a dog turd isnt a turd.
to: crazyoil your statements aren't factual.
Fuel injection will compensate for almost any air filter restriction. Except at full throttle.. So a dirty air filter doesn't hurt Mpg on modern vehicles.
Also oil filters don't restrict flow, if there was a restriction they would go into bypass.. Since oil pumps are usually positive displacement.
You could claim you work at NASA but don't try to claim a dog turd isnt a turd.
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Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Look it up yourself... I go to many classes put on from most of the auto manufactures and they say it all the time because i personally bring up this subject whenever i get a chance at my engine rebuilding seminars. These are the techs who know not guess i asked a honda rep why their filters are not like 99% and he also stated like i say all the time. FLOW!
So if you think the post i wrote is ridiculous you know more than the people that build the engines because i talk with them all the time, in a matter of fact my next seminar which is in two weeks i will be getting an award of excellence in engine rebuilding.We do them all not just a lot of them we rebuild every major automotive engine there is and some of them we have to rebuild and write a report as to what happened to the engine in question for later examining or court proceedings.
I trust the sae paper and it proves that air filter restriction has no measurable effect on mpg in our modern gasoline engines.
Here is the quote since you didn't click on the link.
Results reveal insignificant fuel economy and emissions sensitivity of modern vehicles to air filter condition, but measureable effects on the 1972 vehicle. All vehicles experienced a measured acceleration performance penalty with clogged intake air filters.
Look it up yourself... I go to many classes put on from most of the auto manufactures and they say it all the time because i personally bring up this subject whenever i get a chance at my engine rebuilding seminars. These are the techs who know not guess i asked a honda rep why their filters are not like 99% and he also stated like i say all the time. FLOW!
So if you think the post i wrote is ridiculous you know more than the people that build the engines because i talk with them all the time, in a matter of fact my next seminar which is in two weeks i will be getting an award of excellence in engine rebuilding.We do them all not just a lot of them we rebuild every major automotive engine there is and some of them we have to rebuild and write a report as to what happened to the engine in question for later examining or court proceedings.
I trust the sae paper and it proves that air filter restriction has no measurable effect on mpg in our modern gasoline engines.
Here is the quote since you didn't click on the link.
Results reveal insignificant fuel economy and emissions sensitivity of modern vehicles to air filter condition, but measureable effects on the 1972 vehicle. All vehicles experienced a measured acceleration performance penalty with clogged intake air filters.
Except full throttle... Its those exceptions... Im sorry you are correct i should have mentioned that Bypass is dumping dirty oil into an engine. You want to try to avoid bypass otherwise why use a filter? There is a reason why Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and the list goes on does not have these 99.9% Claims on oil filters or does everyone just think they don't know how to build a restrictive filter?
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
You're right, automotive engineers do not have jobs to keep. They work for free.
Who has an agenda to discourage frequent replacement of air filters? And if Honda was so concerned about oil flow restrictions related to oil filters, why would they recommend replacing oil filters every other oil change? The more a filter loads, the lower the flow. If flow really was the king of the hill when it comes to oil filtration, they would call for filter changes more often than oil changes!
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Except full throttle... Its those exceptions... Im sorry you are correct i should have mentioned that Bypass is dumping dirty oil into an engine. You want to try to avoid bypass otherwise why use a filter? There is a reason why Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and the list goes on does not have these 99.9% Claims on oil filters or does everyone just think they don't know how to build a restrictive filter?
The full throttle comment was in regards to air filter restriction and acceleration, not full throttle mpg or oil flow.
The reason Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and others do not have 99.9% efficiency claims is that they are not in the business of selling top tier air or oil filters. They are in the business of selling cars for a profit. Spec'ing a filter that costs even $1 more per unit would mean a $9.9 million hit to GM's bottom line in 2014 on new car sales (based on worldwide vehicle sales of 9.9 million). Flow and efficiency are not mutually exclusive. See this thread that shows great flow from PureOnes, which have excellent filtration.
I would wager that Fram Ultras have greater efficiency and flow than OEM filters. BUT, they cost a lot more (in the grand scheme of things).
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
You're right, automotive engineers do not have jobs to keep. They work for free.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Except full throttle... Its those exceptions... Im sorry you are correct i should have mentioned that Bypass is dumping dirty oil into an engine. You want to try to avoid bypass otherwise why use a filter? There is a reason why Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and the list goes on does not have these 99.9% Claims on oil filters or does everyone just think they don't know how to build a restrictive filter?
The full throttle comment was in regards to air filter restriction and acceleration, not full throttle mpg or oil flow.
The reason Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and others do not have 99.9% efficiency claims is that they are not in the business of selling top tier air or oil filters. They are in the business of selling cars for a profit. Spec'ing a filter that costs even $1 more per unit would mean a $9.9 million hit to GM's bottom line in 2014 on new car sales (based on worldwide vehicle sales of 9.9 million). Flow and efficiency are not mutually exclusive. See this thread that shows great flow from PureOnes, which have excellent filtration.
I would wager that Fram Ultras have greater efficiency and flow than OEM filters. BUT, they cost a lot more (in the grand scheme of things).
You answered most of your questions in your first paragraph. And in my professional opinion flow is "king of the hill"as you put it because like i said many times without flow your engine locks up, dirty oil lubricates much better than no oil at all. You can believe what you want its all good. I won't even comment on the pureones because you saw that chart and it must be on the money, because there are no agendas.. Who said anything about automotive engineers working for free. This is getting silly. Curious what is a lost control account manager anyway?
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Except full throttle... Its those exceptions... Im sorry you are correct i should have mentioned that Bypass is dumping dirty oil into an engine. You want to try to avoid bypass otherwise why use a filter? There is a reason why Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and the list goes on does not have these 99.9% Claims on oil filters or does everyone just think they don't know how to build a restrictive filter?
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
I like how we're discussing air filters and somehow you tangent to oil filters but..
Bypass events are rare and infrequent in most oil filter applications.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2975410
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3198452/1
Except full throttle... Its those exceptions... Im sorry you are correct i should have mentioned that Bypass is dumping dirty oil into an engine. You want to try to avoid bypass otherwise why use a filter? There is a reason why Motorcraft, Mopar, Toyota, Honda and the list goes on does not have these 99.9% Claims on oil filters or does everyone just think they don't know how to build a restrictive filter?
A lot of these "papers" and research that is being done are flawed because the people that write them have agendas and jobs to keep.
I like how we're discussing air filters and somehow you tangent to oil filters but..
Bypass events are rare and infrequent in most oil filter applications.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2975410
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3198452/1
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
im sure you can find it somewhere but in general new car companies like the filters less restrictive because better flowing air filters give better mpg's and better flowing oil filters let the oil flow fast.
A). As others have already said, no, they don't give better MPG. The only time a restrictive filter becomes an issue is under high load situations where the engine is trying to ingest the most air. This is also where MPG is going to be the least of your concerns.
Which brings me to my 2nd point which ties in with both of your statements:
B). Pleat count and surface area ultimately dictate flow. The more and the deeper the pleats, the more efficient an air or oil filter can be at the same flow rate. And this doesn't factor in depth media like the newer synthetic glass filter media which can offer greater efficiency AND greater flow for the same surface area.
This is why high powered engines often have large filters. My M5 has two air filters that are quite large and also an oil filter that is huge with massive amounts of media. This way BMW can ensure both sufficient volume of clean air and sufficient volume of clean oil.
This is the same reason that Ford (as an example) uses large cone filters on their trucks. More surface area.
This is the same reason many of the Diesel trucks have a factory Donaldson PowerCORE filter; the most efficient filter in the industry.
Clean air is vital to the longevity of an engine. You do not, in any way, shape or form, want abrasives in your intake tract. They wear out valve guides, the wear and scar cylinders, destroy rings....etc. Being in the rebuild business, you should know this. I'm sure you are familiar with the term that often applies to a failed diesel: Dusting. Which is exactly what it sounds like.
Clean air is also more important than clean oil. This is why many small engines don't have oil filters and still last an incredibly long time. But they all have air filters
im sure you can find it somewhere but in general new car companies like the filters less restrictive because better flowing air filters give better mpg's and better flowing oil filters let the oil flow fast.
A). As others have already said, no, they don't give better MPG. The only time a restrictive filter becomes an issue is under high load situations where the engine is trying to ingest the most air. This is also where MPG is going to be the least of your concerns.
Which brings me to my 2nd point which ties in with both of your statements:
B). Pleat count and surface area ultimately dictate flow. The more and the deeper the pleats, the more efficient an air or oil filter can be at the same flow rate. And this doesn't factor in depth media like the newer synthetic glass filter media which can offer greater efficiency AND greater flow for the same surface area.
This is why high powered engines often have large filters. My M5 has two air filters that are quite large and also an oil filter that is huge with massive amounts of media. This way BMW can ensure both sufficient volume of clean air and sufficient volume of clean oil.
This is the same reason that Ford (as an example) uses large cone filters on their trucks. More surface area.
This is the same reason many of the Diesel trucks have a factory Donaldson PowerCORE filter; the most efficient filter in the industry.
Clean air is vital to the longevity of an engine. You do not, in any way, shape or form, want abrasives in your intake tract. They wear out valve guides, the wear and scar cylinders, destroy rings....etc. Being in the rebuild business, you should know this. I'm sure you are familiar with the term that often applies to a failed diesel: Dusting. Which is exactly what it sounds like.
Clean air is also more important than clean oil. This is why many small engines don't have oil filters and still last an incredibly long time. But they all have air filters
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Clean air is also more important than clean oil. This is why many small engines don't have oil filters and still last an incredibly long time. But they all have air filters
You will often hear(read) me argue on behalf of K&N not being as bad as the horror stories proclaim, but truth be told, we all know that they are not as efficient as paper media. So, although i wouldnt discourage there use, your last sentence is the reason why i stopped using their air filters. There is something to that logic that turned a light on in my thick skull.
Clean air is also more important than clean oil. This is why many small engines don't have oil filters and still last an incredibly long time. But they all have air filters
You will often hear(read) me argue on behalf of K&N not being as bad as the horror stories proclaim, but truth be told, we all know that they are not as efficient as paper media. So, although i wouldnt discourage there use, your last sentence is the reason why i stopped using their air filters. There is something to that logic that turned a light on in my thick skull.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
... I go to many classes put on from most of the auto manufactures ... engine rebuilding seminars. These are the techs who know not guess
Engine rebuilding techs don't necessarily know the subtleties of engine operation and performance.
Not as well as the designers.
It's like I wouldn't ask my doctor for details on how the MRI scanner works.
He might have some misconceptions.
... I go to many classes put on from most of the auto manufactures ... engine rebuilding seminars. These are the techs who know not guess
Engine rebuilding techs don't necessarily know the subtleties of engine operation and performance.
Not as well as the designers.
It's like I wouldn't ask my doctor for details on how the MRI scanner works.
He might have some misconceptions.
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