I suggest Maxlife, it may help your smoke problem if it is related to valve seals.
Oil recommendation for a 1965 Volvo 122S.
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Originally Posted By: UncleS2
If someone has a gizmo/whazzit/etc that will allow you to use a "normal" air filter, that should be just the thing. If you get such a unit please post a pic or three, I'd love to see what they did.
I'm quite pleased with this. The bottom of each filter housing is held to the carbs with the OEM bolts via a small bracket with standoffs. That bracket is directly under the top cover of each filter housing, and is what that cap nut screws to to hold the whole works together.
A Fram CA77 or equivalent filter is what goes in there. Very neat. The whole kit including filters cost less than one new OE-style filter.
If someone has a gizmo/whazzit/etc that will allow you to use a "normal" air filter, that should be just the thing. If you get such a unit please post a pic or three, I'd love to see what they did.
I'm quite pleased with this. The bottom of each filter housing is held to the carbs with the OEM bolts via a small bracket with standoffs. That bracket is directly under the top cover of each filter housing, and is what that cap nut screws to to hold the whole works together.
A Fram CA77 or equivalent filter is what goes in there. Very neat. The whole kit including filters cost less than one new OE-style filter.
I had 68 1800S & 122S wagon, and a 145S wagon. Those were great cars in their day. I agree with most everything UncleS2 said.
Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! Made a world of difference.
Leaky valve cover gaskets were also big nuisance! Every time valves were adjusted, needed a new one. Get a neoprene gasket.
IPD used to be the go to place for most of this stuff. I think that they are still in business but may have to find them under Rallitec.
Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! Made a world of difference.
Leaky valve cover gaskets were also big nuisance! Every time valves were adjusted, needed a new one. Get a neoprene gasket.
IPD used to be the go to place for most of this stuff. I think that they are still in business but may have to find them under Rallitec.
I love the way those Volvos look, with the door handles way up high. The Amazon was sort of Sweden's answer to the Mercedes W123, I guess.
Outstanding!
It looks as though it could be factory, too. One thing that someone else mentioned above: the throttle shaft, over the years will wear & enlarge the holes is rides in, allowing extra air into the intake. This will roughen the idle, reduce power by a bit, & also allows a bit of unfiltered air into the system. It's pretty easy to check for. With car well warmed & idling in the driveway, get a cup of water, & maybe a straw or piece of small tubing Load the tubing with water, keeping a finger or thumb over the top end. Put the other end near the throttle shaft junction, rev the engine a little, & release a little water. If it sucks it right in there, best to get it fixed. Best is to enlarge the holes the shaft goes through, & than have fitted bronze bushings pressed in. That will outlast the original, which is a steel shaft in plain old aluminum, and if it ever needs doing again the process is a little simpler & less expen$ive. You'll need a shop that can have everything perfectly aligned & bore all holes in one pass- and such shops may be rare these days. Good news- I'd expect them to be reasonably easy to find via the internet these days. Just hit websites for old cars with twin/triple SU carb setups, like old Volvos, MG's, Triumphs, Jaguars, Austin Healys, etc.
Points: mine was never too bad on points, so long as I used Bosch or(in the very early days that I owned it) Blue Streak. Still, an electronic ignition should be nice, as well as throwing more voltage to the plugs.
Timing gear: I only told you part of the story up above. If it strips the teeth on the timing gear, you're kaput until it's fixed. BUT: The timing gear has a small steel central hub, & not just the teeth, but most of the body is made of some type fiber too. This was done to help keep things quiet. When you have that bad old backfire on a cold morning, 3 possibilities.
1. No discernible problem- congrats, you got lucky!
2. The teeth strip- fairly likely. If so your car won't run until you get a new timing gear.
3. The body of the gear separates from the hub, allowing it to work back & forth X number of degrees. Once this is done, the car will still run for maybe a while, maybe another 100,000 miles- but whenever you slow the engine to an idle, you'll get this loud Ka-Lack Ka-Lack. Of course, idle & power both suffer a lot from this. And unfortunately, this is more likely than the teeth stripping. If anyone has a modern replacement timing gear made of different materials that will eliminate this possibility, it would be the best thing I can imagine for an old Volvo B-18 engine. Take it from someone who drove his old Volvo for *many* thousands of miles with this problem.
BTW- leaks around the throttle shaft can only contribute to the possibility of a bad backfire on a cold morning.
Hot rodding- Short version: Please don't. You already have the factory hot rod B-18, rated at a big 100 HP vs 80? 85? HP for the single-carb version. So long as they're kept in tune, the old SU carbs can deliver all the fuel & airflow those little pushrod engines can ever use. IMO, if you want massive horsepower, get it from something else, not a 50-yr old Volvo!
Edit: I'd disagree with dovidan on one thing- given a choice, I'd get cork VC gaskets instead of neoprene, based on my own experience. So long as the surfaces are clean & the VC isn't bent around the mounting holes, a cork gasket should seal well with only a bit of grease smeared thinly on each side. My limited experience with neoprene was trouble- and the Volvo mechanics in the late 1970s all said the same thing when I asked them how to get it to seal. "Use a cork gasket!" Still, you might have no trouble with it.
Ignition timing: Are you currently running Super Unleaded in the car? If so, good. But if you're running regular 87 octane in it, and it's not pinging/clattering like crazy, the timing is pulled way back. A timing light is very good to have- but you *can* time these very well, easily, by road test.
Points: mine was never too bad on points, so long as I used Bosch or(in the very early days that I owned it) Blue Streak. Still, an electronic ignition should be nice, as well as throwing more voltage to the plugs.
Timing gear: I only told you part of the story up above. If it strips the teeth on the timing gear, you're kaput until it's fixed. BUT: The timing gear has a small steel central hub, & not just the teeth, but most of the body is made of some type fiber too. This was done to help keep things quiet. When you have that bad old backfire on a cold morning, 3 possibilities.
1. No discernible problem- congrats, you got lucky!
2. The teeth strip- fairly likely. If so your car won't run until you get a new timing gear.
3. The body of the gear separates from the hub, allowing it to work back & forth X number of degrees. Once this is done, the car will still run for maybe a while, maybe another 100,000 miles- but whenever you slow the engine to an idle, you'll get this loud Ka-Lack Ka-Lack. Of course, idle & power both suffer a lot from this. And unfortunately, this is more likely than the teeth stripping. If anyone has a modern replacement timing gear made of different materials that will eliminate this possibility, it would be the best thing I can imagine for an old Volvo B-18 engine. Take it from someone who drove his old Volvo for *many* thousands of miles with this problem.
BTW- leaks around the throttle shaft can only contribute to the possibility of a bad backfire on a cold morning.
Hot rodding- Short version: Please don't. You already have the factory hot rod B-18, rated at a big 100 HP vs 80? 85? HP for the single-carb version. So long as they're kept in tune, the old SU carbs can deliver all the fuel & airflow those little pushrod engines can ever use. IMO, if you want massive horsepower, get it from something else, not a 50-yr old Volvo!
Edit: I'd disagree with dovidan on one thing- given a choice, I'd get cork VC gaskets instead of neoprene, based on my own experience. So long as the surfaces are clean & the VC isn't bent around the mounting holes, a cork gasket should seal well with only a bit of grease smeared thinly on each side. My limited experience with neoprene was trouble- and the Volvo mechanics in the late 1970s all said the same thing when I asked them how to get it to seal. "Use a cork gasket!" Still, you might have no trouble with it.
Ignition timing: Are you currently running Super Unleaded in the car? If so, good. But if you're running regular 87 octane in it, and it's not pinging/clattering like crazy, the timing is pulled way back. A timing light is very good to have- but you *can* time these very well, easily, by road test.
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Originally Posted By: UncleS2
Outstanding!
It looks as though it could be factory, too. One thing that someone else mentioned above: the throttle shaft, over the years will wear & enlarge the holes is rides in, allowing extra air into the intake. This will roughen the idle, reduce power by a bit, & also allows a bit of unfiltered air into the system. It's pretty easy to check for. With car well warmed & idling in the driveway, get a cup of water, & maybe a straw or piece of small tubing Load the tubing with water, keeping a finger or thumb over the top end. Put the other end near the throttle shaft junction, rev the engine a little, & release a little water. If it sucks it right in there, best to get it fixed. Best is to enlarge the holes the shaft goes through, & than have fitted bronze bushings pressed in. That will outlast the original, which is a steel shaft in plain old aluminum, and if it ever needs doing again the process is a little simpler & less expen$ive. You'll need a shop that can have everything perfectly aligned & bore all holes in one pass- and such shops may be rare these days. Good news- I'd expect them to be reasonably easy to find via the internet these days. Just hit websites for old cars with twin/triple SU carb setups, like old Volvos, MG's, Triumphs, Jaguars, Austin Healys, etc.
Agree.
I did not want to comment on the Carburetors too much, as you say they have been 'sorted' and you did not mention that there was an issue with them.
I did ask about the throttle shafts, as it is a common area of neglect on old SU's that have spent their life 'away from Europe'
I am NOT an SU expert, but I have been working with them and on them for about 40 years now. so I guess I might know a little more than most people, and I'm afraid to say I have very often seen some REAL horrible work inflicted on constant depression carburetors this side of the Atlantic, so I advise you to beware!
SU (essentially) are still in existence in the UK under the name of Burlen Fuel [url=Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/][url=Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/]Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/[/url][/url] they keep a full stock of parts for virtually every SU made since 1930. They know their stuff, but can be a little difficult to deal with, as they expect you to deal only in SU part #'s and don't tolerate Layman's talk for very long.
State-side I would highly recommend that you deal with http://joecurto.com/ who offers full service and uses only quality components.
With regard to Throttle shafts, these, as stated tend to wear into the Carb body and allow Air leaks. The latest SU rebuild kits now come with Teflon lined steel carburetor body bushings that all but eliminate this problem. The only problem is, you will need to get the body reamed/Line bored to accept the oversize bushing. and this is a precision job!
Another area of neglect is the metering needle and Jet. On your HS6 Carbs the needle is called a Biased needle. that is; the needle is Biased to one side of the jet by a small spring. As the needle moves in and out of the jet (in normal operation) it will tend to wear the jet hole Oval AND cause a Flat side on one side of the metering needle.
YOU CANNOT REPLACE THE METERING NEEDLE WITH ANY OLD SU NEEDLE!
There are several Hundred needles that will fit your Carburetors. Only one will be right for your application!
Despite what others may tell you, once set up properly, SU's can be very reliable, require little maintenance and give excellent performance. In fact the saying goes: "Most problems with SU's are ignition problems" meaning, people start to remedy poor running due to ignition by playing with the Carbs, and trying to fix what isn't broke.
With regards ignition, I would highly recommend a conversion to Electronic ignition. There are some great conversion kits out there like Petrinix http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx they are invisible under the hood, can go a long way to eliminate problems within an otherwise worn distributor and will even allow you to go back to Points at a later date, if you so wish.
Outstanding!
Agree.
I did not want to comment on the Carburetors too much, as you say they have been 'sorted' and you did not mention that there was an issue with them.
I did ask about the throttle shafts, as it is a common area of neglect on old SU's that have spent their life 'away from Europe'
I am NOT an SU expert, but I have been working with them and on them for about 40 years now. so I guess I might know a little more than most people, and I'm afraid to say I have very often seen some REAL horrible work inflicted on constant depression carburetors this side of the Atlantic, so I advise you to beware!
SU (essentially) are still in existence in the UK under the name of Burlen Fuel [url=Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/][url=Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/]Systemshttps://burlen.co.uk/[/url][/url] they keep a full stock of parts for virtually every SU made since 1930. They know their stuff, but can be a little difficult to deal with, as they expect you to deal only in SU part #'s and don't tolerate Layman's talk for very long.
State-side I would highly recommend that you deal with http://joecurto.com/ who offers full service and uses only quality components.
With regard to Throttle shafts, these, as stated tend to wear into the Carb body and allow Air leaks. The latest SU rebuild kits now come with Teflon lined steel carburetor body bushings that all but eliminate this problem. The only problem is, you will need to get the body reamed/Line bored to accept the oversize bushing. and this is a precision job!
Another area of neglect is the metering needle and Jet. On your HS6 Carbs the needle is called a Biased needle. that is; the needle is Biased to one side of the jet by a small spring. As the needle moves in and out of the jet (in normal operation) it will tend to wear the jet hole Oval AND cause a Flat side on one side of the metering needle.
YOU CANNOT REPLACE THE METERING NEEDLE WITH ANY OLD SU NEEDLE!
There are several Hundred needles that will fit your Carburetors. Only one will be right for your application!
Despite what others may tell you, once set up properly, SU's can be very reliable, require little maintenance and give excellent performance. In fact the saying goes: "Most problems with SU's are ignition problems" meaning, people start to remedy poor running due to ignition by playing with the Carbs, and trying to fix what isn't broke.
With regards ignition, I would highly recommend a conversion to Electronic ignition. There are some great conversion kits out there like Petrinix http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx they are invisible under the hood, can go a long way to eliminate problems within an otherwise worn distributor and will even allow you to go back to Points at a later date, if you so wish.
Maybe the reason 1st two Volvos went thru so many points was that I wasn't getting the right ones. None-the-less, electronic ignition will eliminate most ignition problems on the B-16 thru B-20 motors. When I got the 3rd Volvo the 1st thing I did to it was change the ignition.
I forgot to mention oil. Mine really liked Castrol GTX 10w-30 in winter or 20w-40 in summer. However, current oils are so different, probably current Dino oil is superior to the GTX of the 70's. My Volvos seem to leak more oil from various gaskets than burn it.
Off the engine topic, your Volvo has all rubber suspension bushings which age regardless of mileage & are probably shot resulting in poor ride and possible clunking noises. You can rebush with OEM rubber or Polyurethane. The PU bushings will improve handling & last for ever but you ride will be harsher.
Here is a link to IDP for all your old Volvo needs.
I forgot to mention oil. Mine really liked Castrol GTX 10w-30 in winter or 20w-40 in summer. However, current oils are so different, probably current Dino oil is superior to the GTX of the 70's. My Volvos seem to leak more oil from various gaskets than burn it.
Off the engine topic, your Volvo has all rubber suspension bushings which age regardless of mileage & are probably shot resulting in poor ride and possible clunking noises. You can rebush with OEM rubber or Polyurethane. The PU bushings will improve handling & last for ever but you ride will be harsher.
Here is a link to IDP for all your old Volvo needs.
Pretty amazing to see old Volvo guys come out of cyberspace to respond to your post! They are presenting a ton of good advice for you.
Another though regarding air filters: if you want to dress up your engine compartment a bit consider ram flow type chrome filters with foam air filter elements. Never buy another filter! They make impressive sucking noises too -- if you like such noise!
http://www.paeco.com/weiand air cleaners.htm
Good luck with your old Swede, it's a gem!
Another though regarding air filters: if you want to dress up your engine compartment a bit consider ram flow type chrome filters with foam air filter elements. Never buy another filter! They make impressive sucking noises too -- if you like such noise!
http://www.paeco.com/weiand air cleaners.htm
Good luck with your old Swede, it's a gem!
I used Mobil 1 15w-50 in the 2 Volvo 1800's I've owned. Overhauled 2 other 1800's, used the same oil from break in onward . They ran fine and had no break in issues.
Z
Z
Originally Posted By: dovidan
Pretty amazing to see old Volvo guys come out of cyberspace to respond to your post! They are presenting a ton of good advice for you.
Another though regarding air filters: if you want to dress up your engine compartment a bit consider ram flow type chrome filters with foam air filter elements. Never buy another filter! They make impressive sucking noises too -- if you like such noise!
http://www.paeco.com/weiand air cleaners.htm
Good luck with your old Swede, it's a gem!
Had those filters on triple 1-3/4 SU cabs on one of my cars.
Great noise, hopeless as filters.
Pretty amazing to see old Volvo guys come out of cyberspace to respond to your post! They are presenting a ton of good advice for you.
Another though regarding air filters: if you want to dress up your engine compartment a bit consider ram flow type chrome filters with foam air filter elements. Never buy another filter! They make impressive sucking noises too -- if you like such noise!
http://www.paeco.com/weiand air cleaners.htm
Good luck with your old Swede, it's a gem!
Had those filters on triple 1-3/4 SU cabs on one of my cars.
Great noise, hopeless as filters.
Originally Posted By: dovidan
"......Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! ........"
-
Points burning is always due to a faulty condenser, or a condenser of insufficient capacity. ( after having three different Pertronix units fail, I'd rather have the points, or a quality electronic ignition like MSD. Cheap electronics with no quality control have no business under the hood.
"......Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! ........"
-
Points burning is always due to a faulty condenser, or a condenser of insufficient capacity. ( after having three different Pertronix units fail, I'd rather have the points, or a quality electronic ignition like MSD. Cheap electronics with no quality control have no business under the hood.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Had those filters on triple 1-3/4 SU cabs on one of my cars.
Great noise, hopeless as filters.
Hopeless like mine. ? ? ?
Z
Had those filters on triple 1-3/4 SU cabs on one of my cars.
Great noise, hopeless as filters.
Hopeless like mine. ? ? ?
Z
Originally Posted By: zray
Originally Posted By: dovidan
"......Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! ........"
-
Points burning is always due to a faulty condenser, or a condenser of insufficient capacity. ( after having three different Pertronix units fail, I'd rather have the points, or a quality electronic ignition like MSD. Cheap electronics with no quality control have no business under the hood.
Personally I have never used Petronix (I have converted my Lucas and Delco points distributors to take Nipondenso Hall effect electronic ignition components)
But most people I know that have bought them didn't seem to have an issue.
Ignition scatter with points ignition can get really bad. I had one car, the distributor shaft was so worn the points could be open or closed depending how you moved the shaft.
Funny thing was it was hard to detect with the engine running, it would (normally) idle OK, but fall flat, or Backfire at about 2k rpm.
Of course, being a British car, the owner assumed it must be the Carburetors.
Originally Posted By: dovidan
"......Besides leaning how to adjust that valves learn how to adjust the SUs. Some can do it by ear but there is balancing tool that makes it much easier. The biggest nuisance was that the points "burned" regularly. I ended up getting after market electronic ignitions & voila --- no more point problems! ........"
-
Points burning is always due to a faulty condenser, or a condenser of insufficient capacity. ( after having three different Pertronix units fail, I'd rather have the points, or a quality electronic ignition like MSD. Cheap electronics with no quality control have no business under the hood.
Personally I have never used Petronix (I have converted my Lucas and Delco points distributors to take Nipondenso Hall effect electronic ignition components)
But most people I know that have bought them didn't seem to have an issue.
Ignition scatter with points ignition can get really bad. I had one car, the distributor shaft was so worn the points could be open or closed depending how you moved the shaft.
Funny thing was it was hard to detect with the engine running, it would (normally) idle OK, but fall flat, or Backfire at about 2k rpm.
Of course, being a British car, the owner assumed it must be the Carburetors.
Whew, this thread expanded a bit! Sorry I've not been keeping up with it, I've been a bit busy.
I'll definitely look into the SU throttle shafts should I encounter issues with idle or backfiring. That's good info to know! The timing gear stuff too. I wonder if AE Clevite does an all-metal timing cog set for the Volvo motors like they do for some other applications I can think of. Ford's 300 I6 for instance.
I have been running 93 octane in it. I don't know what the previous owner was running in it. My engine is the 8.x:1 compression B18D motor instead of the 10:1 B18B hi-po option, so maybe the fuel differences wouldn't quite be so noticeable? I have been meaning to get a timing light on it regardless.
Right now my project is gathering all the junk I need to swap it from the old generator to a Delco alternator. I've already got SWEM's swap kit, as well as one of their rebuilt fuse blocks just because mine is pretty funky. I'm also going to put a MegaFuse block on the charging system because the current fuse setup someone butchered into it is a joke (but better than the none-at-all fuse it had from the factory, I suppose). In fact, between that, the dealer-installed AC, and a couple of other things, I've got a bit of wiring to clean up, but nothing too bad. While I'm doing the alternator job, that old AC system is coming out, and it'll be a good time to do the belts and hoses as well.
I'll definitely look into the SU throttle shafts should I encounter issues with idle or backfiring. That's good info to know! The timing gear stuff too. I wonder if AE Clevite does an all-metal timing cog set for the Volvo motors like they do for some other applications I can think of. Ford's 300 I6 for instance.
I have been running 93 octane in it. I don't know what the previous owner was running in it. My engine is the 8.x:1 compression B18D motor instead of the 10:1 B18B hi-po option, so maybe the fuel differences wouldn't quite be so noticeable? I have been meaning to get a timing light on it regardless.
Right now my project is gathering all the junk I need to swap it from the old generator to a Delco alternator. I've already got SWEM's swap kit, as well as one of their rebuilt fuse blocks just because mine is pretty funky. I'm also going to put a MegaFuse block on the charging system because the current fuse setup someone butchered into it is a joke (but better than the none-at-all fuse it had from the factory, I suppose). In fact, between that, the dealer-installed AC, and a couple of other things, I've got a bit of wiring to clean up, but nothing too bad. While I'm doing the alternator job, that old AC system is coming out, and it'll be a good time to do the belts and hoses as well.
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I forgot to mention- given road salt, or just a little mud packed in from driving on wet/damp dirt roads(*much* more common in the 1960's thru mid 70s in central OK), places to watch for rust arejust under the headlights, & at the very top rear of the front fenders. Keep it out of road salt, & keep those places free of any mud on the inside of the bodywork, & there should be no problems. Of course, once you see the bubbles coming through the paint it's too late.
Timing light is great, but you can easily time it by testing to safely get the best power & economy. Moderately steep grade, car well warmed & in high gear, go uphill at moderate speed & pour the coal to it. Keep bumping the timing until it clatters, then back off of that just enough to make the clatter disappear- or some folks favored just a bit of clatter(pinging) left under most severe load only. Once done, you'll have the best timing for that car, with that gas. Works well on old non-computerized engines.
You're doing a great job on the old Volvo. Before long, you, too may begin hearing,"Cool! Is that Columbo's car?"
Timing light is great, but you can easily time it by testing to safely get the best power & economy. Moderately steep grade, car well warmed & in high gear, go uphill at moderate speed & pour the coal to it. Keep bumping the timing until it clatters, then back off of that just enough to make the clatter disappear- or some folks favored just a bit of clatter(pinging) left under most severe load only. Once done, you'll have the best timing for that car, with that gas. Works well on old non-computerized engines.
You're doing a great job on the old Volvo. Before long, you, too may begin hearing,"Cool! Is that Columbo's car?"
Very nice looking old Volvo that with a little sorting could be a good weather daily driver.
I hope that's how you intend to use her.
That's what she was built to do.
90K is nothing on an old car.
With all of the Columbo references, I thought that I should point out that the Columbo I remember drove a Peugeot.
I hope that's how you intend to use her.
That's what she was built to do.
90K is nothing on an old car.
With all of the Columbo references, I thought that I should point out that the Columbo I remember drove a Peugeot.
Yup, that was my standard answer. "Nope, Columbo drove a Peugot. This is a Volvo." Spread out over 20+ years of ownership- Probably a thousand times!
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