Suburban 454 Issues

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Originally Posted By: Leo99
Let's see, my knowledge is elementary.. The MAF compensates the amount of the air based on atmospheric conditions. No MAF and you're running fine. With MAF not running fine. What does the MAF control? It fine tunes to tell your car's computer how much fuel to deliver. You're either getting too much or too little fuel (rich/lean) based on the signal from the MAF. Either your MAF is wacky, the computer is sending wrong signals, or the fuel delivery is not what the computer thinks it is.

Can you tell if you're running rich or lean?


It won't run well enough with the MAF plugged in for me to tell if it is lean or rich. The chirping/stumbling has me nervous to run it like that for long. I suppose I could pull a plug to check. I can't tell if I was getting poor MPG or not before this issue arose as I was pulling a trailer for the last 2k miles or so.
 
lol thank you... Maybe this will work! Lets replace all the good injectors at about $400.00 then maybe a maf it that don't work maybe the front left tire and then...o boy !!
Try the techron, clean the throttle body then go from there. Maybe you have bad gas it could happen.. Try the cheap possible fix first then go from there...If it runs good with the maf unplugged the injectors are good but probably would be better with a cleaning. When i had the range rover i cleaned the throttle body every two months or it would run bad and sometimes stall out cleaning it felt like i put a new engine in.
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
lol thank you... Maybe this will work! Lets replace all the good injectors at about $400.00 then maybe a maf it that don't work maybe the front left tire and then...o boy !!
Try the techron, clean the throttle body then go from there. Maybe you have bad gas it could happen.. Try the cheap possible fix first then go from there...If it runs good with the maf unplugged the injectors are good but probably would be better with a cleaning. When i had the range rover i cleaned the throttle body every two months or it would run bad and sometimes stall out cleaning it felt like i put a new engine in.


No... Thank you.

I cleaned the throttle body, it has a full, fresh tank of top tier gasoline, techron infused no less. Issue remains.

So I'm going from there. Do you have a recommendation on where that is?
 
If you hold the throttle steady, does it have a persistent miss in the 1500-2000rpm range? Or does it only happen temporarily as the throttle is being moved?

Throttle position sensors have a reputation of developing a flat spot in the area of light throttle tip-in. I've never experienced that problem myself, but it's supposedly common.
Using a multimeter, you can probe the TPS and try to determine if it is behaving smoothly across it's operating range.

If the misfire is persistent at steady throttle, then I don't think it's the TPS. The throttle sensor is used to help with fuel calculation during transients. Once you're at steady state, the ECM will respond more specifically to the MAF or the MAP.
I don't really understand how the algorithm is programmed with cars that have both a MAP and a MAF. The cars I'm familiar with just use one or the other.
If you unplug the MAF, normally I'd expect it to run rich by default (likely staying in open loop). But if there's also a MAP available, then I'm not sure what it would do. I suspect unplugging the MAF is making it run richer though, which is why it cures the symptoms.

You mentioned that giving it heavier throttle clears up the misfire. Is it downshifting? If so, that's changing all the conditions. If it's clearing up without a downshift, then it could be a result of triggering power enrichment mode. When the various sensor inputs cross some preprogrammed thresholds, the ECM will run the engine rich instead of targeting stoich. This may clear up a lean misfire. It also argues against ignition - heavy throttle at same RPM should generally make an ignition problem worse, not better.

I seriously doubt that it's rich, I think it's lean. On a modern EFI vehicle you're far more likely to experience lean misfires than rich misfires. They try to run as lean as they can. The mixture could richen significantly and you wouldn't have a miss - in fact it richens intentionally during heavy throttle.

You might check the fuel pressure regulation - the fuel pressure should vary in relation to manifold pressure. The differential between fuel pressure and manifold pressure must remain constant or it messes with the injector flow rates, and that makes it impossible for the ECM to manage them correctly.


Did the truck have this problem when it was parked? How long has it been sitting? A vehicle that's been sitting is more likely to develop fuel system problems than anything else.


It is possible that you have bad injectors. They may be sputtering and giving improper volume/atomization in the lower duty cycle range of their operation. I don't know any practical way to confirm this though, and they are expensive to replace just on a guess.

A few years ago I had a frustrating stumble just off-idle on an 86 GM 2.8L. Somebody had put Multecs in it. Fuel pressure and regulation were tested and confirmed good. I replaced the injectors with a set of flow-matched refurbs (also Multecs) for about $90. I have not had the problem since then, and I believe the injectors are what fixed it. However, I did so much "fixing up" on that car around that period of time that it's kind of a blur. The injectors were replaced at the same time as all the intake gaskets were, so I can't rule that out as another possible reason for the fix. And this is just a single case - yours could certainly have a different issue.
 
EGR? I had a 91 Sierra back in the day with a 5.7 and it had similar symptoms. I took it to the dealer and they did the EGR valve and the sensor that controlled it. Ran like a top afterwards.
 
Originally Posted By: 1kickbuttranger
EGR? I had a 91 Sierra back in the day with a 5.7 and it had similar symptoms. I took it to the dealer and they did the EGR valve and the sensor that controlled it. Ran like a top afterwards.

Makes sense.

However, this engine is OBDII, and if it has EGR, it tests for flow. However, the system isn't perfect, so sometimes the EGR fails, but doesn't trigger any warnings.
 
Thanks for the replies, guys.

Further data:

I unplugged the EGR and ran around for a while. It runs perfectly. It took about 50-75 miles and a few ignition cycles, but the CEL finally came on for the disconnected EGR. It still runs great, but with the CEL.

I removed and inspected the EGR. The piston cycles fine, the ports to and from are clean, the gasket was sealing well. When I plugged the EGR back in, the problem immediately returns.


I have a nicer, data logging scanner coming today. Also, I'm going to find the specs for the wiring to the EGR to verify it is seeing the correct voltages.
 
Originally Posted By: armos
If you hold the throttle steady, does it have a persistent miss in the 1500-2000rpm range? Or does it only happen temporarily as the throttle is being moved?

Throttle position sensors have a reputation of developing a flat spot in the area of light throttle tip-in. I've never experienced that problem myself, but it's supposedly common.
Using a multimeter, you can probe the TPS and try to determine if it is behaving smoothly across it's operating range.

If the misfire is persistent at steady throttle, then I don't think it's the TPS. The throttle sensor is used to help with fuel calculation during transients. Once you're at steady state, the ECM will respond more specifically to the MAF or the MAP.
I don't really understand how the algorithm is programmed with cars that have both a MAP and a MAF. The cars I'm familiar with just use one or the other.
If you unplug the MAF, normally I'd expect it to run rich by default (likely staying in open loop). But if there's also a MAP available, then I'm not sure what it would do. I suspect unplugging the MAF is making it run richer though, which is why it cures the symptoms.

You mentioned that giving it heavier throttle clears up the misfire. Is it downshifting? If so, that's changing all the conditions. If it's clearing up without a downshift, then it could be a result of triggering power enrichment mode. When the various sensor inputs cross some preprogrammed thresholds, the ECM will run the engine rich instead of targeting stoich. This may clear up a lean misfire. It also argues against ignition - heavy throttle at same RPM should generally make an ignition problem worse, not better.

I seriously doubt that it's rich, I think it's lean. On a modern EFI vehicle you're far more likely to experience lean misfires than rich misfires. They try to run as lean as they can. The mixture could richen significantly and you wouldn't have a miss - in fact it richens intentionally during heavy throttle.

You might check the fuel pressure regulation - the fuel pressure should vary in relation to manifold pressure. The differential between fuel pressure and manifold pressure must remain constant or it messes with the injector flow rates, and that makes it impossible for the ECM to manage them correctly.


Did the truck have this problem when it was parked? How long has it been sitting? A vehicle that's been sitting is more likely to develop fuel system problems than anything else.


It is possible that you have bad injectors. They may be sputtering and giving improper volume/atomization in the lower duty cycle range of their operation. I don't know any practical way to confirm this though, and they are expensive to replace just on a guess.

A few years ago I had a frustrating stumble just off-idle on an 86 GM 2.8L. Somebody had put Multecs in it. Fuel pressure and regulation were tested and confirmed good. I replaced the injectors with a set of flow-matched refurbs (also Multecs) for about $90. I have not had the problem since then, and I believe the injectors are what fixed it. However, I did so much "fixing up" on that car around that period of time that it's kind of a blur. The injectors were replaced at the same time as all the intake gaskets were, so I can't rule that out as another possible reason for the fix. And this is just a single case - yours could certainly have a different issue.


The misfire/stumble is consistent at steady throttle input. If I hold it around 1k-1.5k rpm, it will stumble and chirp along.

It isn't downshifting with heavier throttle. I should have been more specific. If I input "parking lot" amounts of throttle, it has the stumble and hesitation. If I give it "merge onto the freeway" amounts, it feels normal.

I drive the truck daily, and the problem started while towing a small trailer during a trip. It had sat overnight and the next morning I started experiencing the symptoms.

I can definitely relate to the "blur" comment... I've read so much about the various sensors and system interconnectivity on this thing that I feel like I work for NASA.

Please see my comment above this where I provided additional symptom/symptom elaboration. Thanks for the thoughtful/quality post!
 
OK gents, got the good scanner with live data. Convinced with wife to drive while I recorded the following(all of which are approximations unless noted otherwise):

STFT B1: 0 to -3
LTFT B1: -6 to -13
STFT B2: 0 to -3
LTFT B2: -6 to -13

MAP: 10-16
Spark adv: -25

IAT: 100-130

O2S B1S1: 0
STFT B1S1: 4.5

O2S B1S2: 0
STFT B1S2: 99

O2S B2S1: 0
STFT B2S1: 0

O2S B2S2: 0
STFT B2S2: 99


So I'm a novice to this stuff, but the STFT B1/B2 S2 of 99 stood out to me as abnormal. Any thoughts?

Finally, the MAP, MAF, TPS all tracked as expected.

Thanks!
 
What happened with the EGR is interesting. It seems that you're only getting the issue when the EGR is commanded to open. Under heavier throttle, the ECM will tell the EGR to close.

When the EGR opens, the ECM will command less fuel. It does this because there is less usable air charge, so it expects less fuel to be needed. If the EGR were in fact not flowing properly, giving you more oxygen than the ECM expects, then *maybe* this would cause a lean condition. But I'm skeptical - I've never heard of this situation causing a miss. I think the effect on fuel mixture is too subtle for it to do this.
When you electrically disconnected your EGR, it appears your ECM wasn't initially aware of the situation - you didn't get a CEL until much later on. Yet even before that light appeared, when the ECM still presumably thought the EGR was functional, the miss was already fixed.

So maybe the problem is the other way around. Maybe the EGR is flowing too much. Perhaps it has a slight leak which is tolerable when the valve is commanded closed, but when commanded open the exhaust flow is too great to get reliable ignition.

You already inspected the mechanicals of the EGR valve, but I'm not sure what else to suspect. Is there any intermediate device sitting in between the ECM and the valve?


Quote:
STFT B1: 0 to -3
LTFT B1: -6 to -13
STFT B2: 0 to -3
LTFT B2: -6 to -13

MAP: 10-16
Spark adv: -25

IAT: 100-130

O2S B1S1: 0
STFT B1S1: 4.5

O2S B1S2: 0
STFT B1S2: 99

O2S B2S1: 0
STFT B2S1: 0

O2S B2S2: 0
STFT B2S2: 99

So I'm a novice to this stuff, but the STFT B1/B2 S2 of 99 stood out to me as abnormal. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure if the 99 is significant. From the way it's written, I think O2S B1S2 would mean the second O2 sensor on bank 1 - probably the one after the catalyst. If I'm right about which is which, then O2S B1S2 should be stable, but O2S B1S1 (upstream) should oscillate rapidly between low and high readings whenever you're in closed loop.

The O2 sensor feedback is used by the ECM to "learn" fuel trims. It looks like your truck has separate fuel trim values for each bank of cylinders. But what's odd is that it seems to also have separate fuel trim values per sensor. I'm not sure what to make of that, since there are 2 sensors per bank.
STFT B1S2 sounds like a "short term fuel trim" value, somehow relating to that single, post-catalyst O2 sensor.

As far as I know, the post-catalyst sensors are not really used to control fuel mixture, or if they are, then not to a significant degree. Conventional wisdom holds that they are only used to detect a degraded catalyst. Conventional wisdom can get things wrong, but that's been my understanding.

I wonder if the STFT of "99" is a meaningless value for something that isn't really used by the ECM. Especially since it's the same "99" on both banks.
I'm not sure though. I'm more comfortable with older OBD-1 setups. I'm not sure how OBD-2 setups are programmed to use all their extra sensors.
 
It is definitely interesting. It is also frustrating, but I am learning a ton about the various sensors and mechanical components, so it isn't all bad.

I ran with the EGR unplugged until it pulled a code(took 10-15 miles of mixed driving). It flagged with "EGR pintle" and "Bank 1 rich". With EGR unplugged, it runs very well.

Plugged EGR back in and drove at least twice as far, but no codes came up. All symptoms remain.

When I inspected the EGR, the pintle/plunger had little resistance to being pushed in, but does spring back some. I'm not so familiar with their construction...do you think a broken spring/loose pintle could cause this issue without setting off any lights?

It really strikes me as odd that it takes a while for the ECM to recognize the EGR is unplugged, but the positive results are immediate. It suggests that whatever is wrong and related to the EGR isn't associated actively with its operation, but passively, like you suggest regarding too much flow. There are no intermediate devices, just the wiring from the ECM to the EGR.

I rented a fuel pressure test unit this evening and will report results tomorrow.

If those results are as expected, I think I will spring for a new EGR. I tested the wiring and it was getting the correct power from the computer. I hate to buy something else for it, but I'm really scratching my head here.
 
O2 Sensor? Go to youtube and look up a recent ScannerDanner video. He had the exact issues as you on a Ford truck, and it was the O2 after all. The slightest EGR opening was causing the already lean condition to get to the point of misfiring.

Good luck.
I'll try to post a link.
 
Great video, thanks 1kickbuttranger. That definitely matches my symptoms...the only problem being that I replaced the O2 sensors and it made no difference. I also am not getting any O2 sensor codes or abnormal readings.

Update:

Ran around will all sensors plugged in trying to get a CEL. It took about 30 miles, but finally got 2 codes, for both banks 1 & 2 running rich. I watched the pre-cat o2 sensors, both of which behave similarly, oscillating rapidly between approx. .02V and .8V.

I tested fuel pressure this morning, checked out fine.


I'm starting to hope somebody steals this thing!
 
Your LTFT numbers are the key. The higher they go into the negative, the more the ECU thinks the engine is running rich and tries to pull fuel to compensate. The misfires tell me that the ECU thinks it's rich but in reality it's not and by pulling fuel it's making both bank very lean until you hit the point of throttle input when the ECU uses a fixed fuel map in place of O2 and MAF readings. That's why when you run with the MAF unplugged, it forces the ECU to just use a default richer fuel map.

Replacing both primary O2 sensors might clear this up for you, but I'm not guaranteeing it. It's possible that they both went TU at the same time, but not likely. Is there a fuel pressure regulator that may be leaking into the vacuum system and flooding the engine, causing the LTFT readings? With the engine running, pull the vacuum hose off of the FPR and be ready for fuel to come out. If fuel is present, that's the issue and replacing the FPR will solve the problem.
 
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Threeputt,

Thanks for the response. I recently replaced both pre-cat O2 sensors with a couple Bosch units. No change in behavior.

I'm not able to access the FPR with the engine running, unfortunately. Access requires removing the upper intake manifold, with the FPR being tucked all the way in the back, under the equally difficult to access distributor...

I retested the fuel pressure and it is indeed out of specification (spec is 56-62 psi)

When I turn the key to ON, I hear the fuel pump energize, the needle rapidly rises to 60 psi, then I hear a single click/tick from the rear of the engine and it drops immediately to 50. I tried this several times and got the same result.

Running, the engine sits at 50 psi the entire time, from idle to about 2500 rpm. Very slight fluctuation, but not much. With the key off for 10 minutes now, pressure dropped from 50 to 28 psi.
 
My guess would have been injectors, but I see Trav already diagnosed that. I would almost guarantee you that's what the problem is. I've had to replace them also on older GMs. Makes a huge difference w/new injectors.
 
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