Not specifically the no maintenance transmission, but they can advertise lowest cost of ownership.
2004 Rav4 ATF factory fill 265,000 miles
- Thread starter Leo99
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Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bigt61
The guys who like to change their ATF every 20,000 miles will ignore this. Good post.
There's a happy medium. I'm one of them on my Cherokee. But rocking it back and fourth for 10 minutes straight in the snow and off roading and towing is a bit harder on the fluid and trans than 100 highway miles a day.
He is in New Jersey. Chances are pretty good his tranny saw soemrocking back and forth and snow thru the years too.
There was no rocking back and forth. The 4wd engages now and then but there's no rocking back and forth. The car is driven gently.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bigt61
The guys who like to change their ATF every 20,000 miles will ignore this. Good post.
There's a happy medium. I'm one of them on my Cherokee. But rocking it back and fourth for 10 minutes straight in the snow and off roading and towing is a bit harder on the fluid and trans than 100 highway miles a day.
He is in New Jersey. Chances are pretty good his tranny saw soemrocking back and forth and snow thru the years too.
There was no rocking back and forth. The 4wd engages now and then but there's no rocking back and forth. The car is driven gently.
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I'm glad it worked out for you. I had a much less fortunate experience, which is why I recommend changes of ATF at 60k and MTF at 30k.
Interesting. I find my local Toyota dealers to be incompetent. The fluid in my Rav is a dark dark red. It looks black if you put in a container but it has a reddish tinge on a paper towel. It doesn't smell burnt.
It's hard to say if changing the tranny fluid on your friend's Rav4 would have been beneficial or not. It may have saved it or the fluid may have just been a symptom of internal damage.
I've been attacked on here as an advocate for lifetime fluids. Weirdly, people seem threatened by lifetime fluids. I'm all for collecting data and admire the oil guys for seeing how far they can push these new "super" oils.
I'm glad it worked out for you. I had a much less fortunate experience, which is why I recommend changes of ATF at 60k and MTF at 30k.
Interesting. I find my local Toyota dealers to be incompetent. The fluid in my Rav is a dark dark red. It looks black if you put in a container but it has a reddish tinge on a paper towel. It doesn't smell burnt.
It's hard to say if changing the tranny fluid on your friend's Rav4 would have been beneficial or not. It may have saved it or the fluid may have just been a symptom of internal damage.
I've been attacked on here as an advocate for lifetime fluids. Weirdly, people seem threatened by lifetime fluids. I'm all for collecting data and admire the oil guys for seeing how far they can push these new "super" oils.
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Gently driven leads to long life.
Drop the pan, clean the magnets, change the filter, refill, and practice a simple couple quart yearly drain/refill regimen.
AWD... change the transfer case and rear diff too.
And a couple siphon refills on the PSF.
Drop the pan, clean the magnets, change the filter, refill, and practice a simple couple quart yearly drain/refill regimen.
AWD... change the transfer case and rear diff too.
And a couple siphon refills on the PSF.
yeah their transmissions are good their engines lately just ok we see a lot of late model Toyotas and Hondas needing engine work in the last few years. Back in the 80's and 90's it was rare.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
It has developed a loud droning sound that gets louder the faster it goes. So, she might be ready for a new Rav after this one hits 300k miles next summer.
Check the wheel bearings
It has developed a loud droning sound that gets louder the faster it goes. So, she might be ready for a new Rav after this one hits 300k miles next summer.
Check the wheel bearings
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
yeah their transmissions are good their engines lately just ok we see a lot of late model Toyotas and Hondas needing engine work in the last few years. Back in the 80's and 90's it was rare.
They keep changing the OCI...now they are back to 10k on 0w20. So you can bet in 4-5 years you'll see more sludged engines. Plus they are more complex with VVT and chain drive systems. If you use synthetic oil (5000 OCI)and clean the fuel system every 20k in a Toyota from new you usually have few problems. Same goes for their transmissions...change atf every 50-60k and they go real long distances. If you don't...you see problems starting around 125k.
yeah their transmissions are good their engines lately just ok we see a lot of late model Toyotas and Hondas needing engine work in the last few years. Back in the 80's and 90's it was rare.
They keep changing the OCI...now they are back to 10k on 0w20. So you can bet in 4-5 years you'll see more sludged engines. Plus they are more complex with VVT and chain drive systems. If you use synthetic oil (5000 OCI)and clean the fuel system every 20k in a Toyota from new you usually have few problems. Same goes for their transmissions...change atf every 50-60k and they go real long distances. If you don't...you see problems starting around 125k.
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
This is why I and many others use our own common sense with maintenance, NOT on the manual. Do you think they want to preserve your car so you never buy another? They want maint costs to look low so you buy the car in the first place.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The automotive marketplace is way too competitive for a mfg to NOT recommend tranny fluid changes if it will make the tranny last longer. What drives consumers back to a brand are reports of NO tranmission problems over 200k miles. Telling a buyer on the showroom they don't need to change their fluid as often is not a selling point. Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
This is why I and many others use our own common sense with maintenance, NOT on the manual. Do you think they want to preserve your car so you never buy another? They want maint costs to look low so you buy the car in the first place.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The automotive marketplace is way too competitive for a mfg to NOT recommend tranny fluid changes if it will make the tranny last longer. What drives consumers back to a brand are reports of NO tranmission problems over 200k miles. Telling a buyer on the showroom they don't need to change their fluid as often is not a selling point. Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Leo99
It has developed a loud droning sound that gets louder the faster it goes. So, she might be ready for a new Rav after this one hits 300k miles next summer.
Check the wheel bearings
I took it in to my local repair shop for diagnostic last year. They think it sounds like wheel bearing too but they checked the bearings and they were ok. They said maybe it's road noise from the tires but they said tires have a lot of tread on them so they told me no charge, nothing to be done, come get it.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
It has developed a loud droning sound that gets louder the faster it goes. So, she might be ready for a new Rav after this one hits 300k miles next summer.
Check the wheel bearings
I took it in to my local repair shop for diagnostic last year. They think it sounds like wheel bearing too but they checked the bearings and they were ok. They said maybe it's road noise from the tires but they said tires have a lot of tread on them so they told me no charge, nothing to be done, come get it.
quote:The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer. quote"
And I have to wonder why? I am sure there are many, many test reports that show the lifetime fluids are in fact, lifetime. They are stored in the labs of Toyota.
And I have to wonder why? I am sure there are many, many test reports that show the lifetime fluids are in fact, lifetime. They are stored in the labs of Toyota.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
quote:The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer. quote"
And I have to wonder why? I am sure there are many, many test reports that show the lifetime fluids are in fact, lifetime. They are stored in the labs of Toyota.
The endpoint isn't the fluid itself, the endpoint is the transmission's serviceable life. We all know that a transmission, no matter how often you service it, will have a finite life. If Toyota's data shows the changing out the tranny fluid has no effect on the longevity of the transmission, then it's a lifetime fluid. Because there's no benefit to change the fluid.
quote:The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer. quote"
And I have to wonder why? I am sure there are many, many test reports that show the lifetime fluids are in fact, lifetime. They are stored in the labs of Toyota.
The endpoint isn't the fluid itself, the endpoint is the transmission's serviceable life. We all know that a transmission, no matter how often you service it, will have a finite life. If Toyota's data shows the changing out the tranny fluid has no effect on the longevity of the transmission, then it's a lifetime fluid. Because there's no benefit to change the fluid.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
What damages have the class suffered due to Toyota's lifetime tranny fluid?
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
What damages have the class suffered due to Toyota's lifetime tranny fluid?
Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: Leo99
What damages have the class suffered due to Toyota's lifetime tranny fluid?
Have you, seriously, not been keeping up on AT maintenance issues since 2004?
That is correct. Toyota said it's maintenance free. I believed them. So far, so good.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
What damages have the class suffered due to Toyota's lifetime tranny fluid?
Have you, seriously, not been keeping up on AT maintenance issues since 2004?
That is correct. Toyota said it's maintenance free. I believed them. So far, so good.
Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
I guess you'll need to educate me on this one. Where does CAFE come in to play on this issue? My mind is open, I just don't see the connection. I personally have not heard about issues on Toyota transmissions. They have made some other bone head moves but their transmissions seem bulletproof as usual.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
I guess you'll need to educate me on this one. Where does CAFE come in to play on this issue? My mind is open, I just don't see the connection. I personally have not heard about issues on Toyota transmissions. They have made some other bone head moves but their transmissions seem bulletproof as usual.
Last edited:
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Everything is maintenance free until it fails.
TIV is not a lifetime fluid. The owners manual, factory service manual, and Passport... have check/inspect intervals...service as required based on experience and judgement.
Toyota transmissions aren't perfect. I've seen plenty fail early in life.
I haven't seen a gentle commute in NJ. Give your wife kudos for driving sanely and patiently. 25k a year is some drving!
TIV is not a lifetime fluid. The owners manual, factory service manual, and Passport... have check/inspect intervals...service as required based on experience and judgement.
Toyota transmissions aren't perfect. I've seen plenty fail early in life.
I haven't seen a gentle commute in NJ. Give your wife kudos for driving sanely and patiently. 25k a year is some drving!
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer.
Engines are a lot more durable than automatic transmissions. People don't realize that the transmissions are often a weak link on a vehicle.
The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer.
Engines are a lot more durable than automatic transmissions. People don't realize that the transmissions are often a weak link on a vehicle.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
I guess you'll need to educate me on this one. Where does CAFE come in to play on this issue? My mind is open, I just don't see the connection. I personally have not heard about issues on Toyota transmissions. They have made some other bone head moves but their transmissions seem bulletproof as usual.
Toyota has (generally) always made excellent transmissions.
Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Trust me, Toyota did lots of testing before recommending lifetime fluid changes.
They sure did. But the judgment was not that it lengthened transmission life, but that it increased CAFE and reduced TCO - an accounting judgment, not an engineering one.
The goal was to get services outside warranty and increase CAFE compliance. There are SAE articles from 10 years ago+ from their engineers talking about this strategy. Stuff a good class action lawyer should be hunting for right now.
Toyota has seriously tarnished their brand the last decade. Hopefully they'll catch on soon and reverse it.
I guess you'll need to educate me on this one. Where does CAFE come in to play on this issue? My mind is open, I just don't see the connection. I personally have not heard about issues on Toyota transmissions. They have made some other bone head moves but their transmissions seem bulletproof as usual.
Toyota has (generally) always made excellent transmissions.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer.
Engines are a lot more durable than automatic transmissions. People don't realize that the transmissions are often a weak link on a vehicle.
that is because of low build quality.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
The spirit of contrarianism runs very deep here. And the contrast between oil and ATF approaches is even more contrarian. The oil guys are pushing their OCI well past the recommendations of the manufacturer with good success. While the ATF guys are just the opposite and changing out their ATF well before the recommendations of the manufacturer.
Engines are a lot more durable than automatic transmissions. People don't realize that the transmissions are often a weak link on a vehicle.
that is because of low build quality.
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