Gearbox failure post mortem

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It is generally suspected that Nissan R32/33 GTR 5 speed boxes start to fail at ~350awkw+ due to being at the limit of their gear strength. However, there is one trusted gearbox rebuilder that does an oiling modification for these boxes. I dont know what that mod is, but third gear seems to be the one that fails and I'm told that gear is toward the front of the box. So there's speculation that the mod may be to stop oil from sloshing to the rear of the box under heavy acceleration.

Is it possible to tell if a gearbox failure is due to temporary oil starvation vs gear strength limit? If so, what would you look for?
 
Assuming the original gearing was hardened properly, no.

Most Nissan transmissions failures that I a aware of fail due to bearings wearing out and causing vibrations up and down the gearing shafts, and of course, the synchro assemblies wear out as well.

Except for reverse, the gears are in constant mesh.

Most gearing in MT's are all hardened to the same level and all gears are splash lubricated.

I would say most failures are caused by bearing/shaft oscillations due to worn bearings because of an incorrect type of fluid being used, or not changing fluid often.

MT's are notorious for shearing lubes to a lower viscosity which is why I recommend changing MT fluid at 30k or less intervals with a dedicated MTL.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
MT's are notorious for shearing lubes to a lower viscosity which is why I recommend changing MT fluid at 30k or less intervals with a dedicated MTL.

Honda owner manual states that conventional 10W30 can be used if MTF is not available. I always have at least one MTL fluid in stash for the next change.

My MTF and Gear change interval is 3 years or 20k miles whichever is first, so far the time came first because I accumulate about 4500-5000 miles a year.

Fluids cost about $25-30 plus $50 labor for 3 years is nothing compares with the cost to repair can be in thousand(s).
 
I know a guy pushing 1000whp on a GTr in regular use. I wonder how long his gearbox has lasted. Last I heard, he was more concerned with axles.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I recommend changing MT fluid at 30k or less intervals with a dedicated MTL.

+1 ... and preferably a synthetic MTL.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Honda owner manual states that conventional 10W30 can be used if MTF is not available.

As a temporary, emergency fill ONLY.
 
It's been my experience that engine oil sheers down in a manual transmission.

It happened to me with my Honda and now I use Red Line MTL.
 
I saw post mortem and expected to see pictures of breakage
frown.gif
.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I know a guy pushing 1000whp on a GTr in regular use. I wonder how long his gearbox has lasted. Last I heard, he was more concerned with axles.


R32/33, or new(er) 'Godzilla'? (I suspect the former since you used a small "r")
 
If you had to use a 10W30 in a gearbox, a motorcycle rated oil would be a good choice, as would a diesel oil.

I have a dodge dakota 4Cy manual that was designed to use 10W40 SF. When I got it someone had put 90W in it, and shifting was awful. I now use 10W40 motorcycle oil, shifts much better. I worry that syncros were damaged by the gear oil, as it is not the best shifting transmission. But it is not getting worse, and never grinds.

Rod
 
Originally Posted By: AdamC
It is generally suspected that Nissan R32/33 GTR 5 speed boxes start to fail at ~350awkw+ due to being at the limit of their gear strength. However, there is one trusted gearbox rebuilder that does an oiling modification for these boxes. I dont know what that mod is, but third gear seems to be the one that fails and I'm told that gear is toward the front of the box. So there's speculation that the mod may be to stop oil from sloshing to the rear of the box under heavy acceleration.

Is it possible to tell if a gearbox failure is due to temporary oil starvation vs gear strength limit? If so, what would you look for?


Yee Ha,

Something I actually know something about. The bulk of my failure analysis arm is on bearings/shafting and gear sets along with being a consulting engineer with both SKF and Rexnord/Falk. I used to design and build gears for a living during my EIT days. (I do a lot of this for the mining industry all over your part of the world too)

In order to do this properly you would need a digital microscope (hobby model around 200x for about $100USD), quality metrology tools and on a great day a gear tooth gauge.

If possible pictures of the shaft and other engaging gears would be helpful too.
If all that cool stuff is not available, post lots of pics and we can probably get you in the ballpark.
 
ISO - What would you be looking for down the microscope, and what measurements would you take and compare? My hope is to have some basic instructions so the next time a box is broken I can take a look at the remains.
 
Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
If you had to use a 10W30 in a gearbox, a motorcycle rated oil would be a good choice, as would a diesel oil.

I have a dodge dakota 4Cy manual that was designed to use 10W40 SF. When I got it someone had put 90W in it, and shifting was awful. I now use 10W40 motorcycle oil, shifts much better. I worry that syncros were damaged by the gear oil, as it is not the best shifting transmission. But it is not getting worse, and never grinds.

Rod


Improve it even more and run an MTF instead of motor oil.
 
Originally Posted By: AdamC
ISO - What would you be looking for down the microscope, and what measurements would you take and compare? My hope is to have some basic instructions so the next time a box is broken I can take a look at the remains.


OK Mate

Let’s do some Field Level Gear Analysis for beginners, Part 1- the theory and preparation

* Not knowing your knowledge level I’m going to start at zero base and build up. Understand that this is built to a standard those in the gear world have to follow so the average guy may not want to go to every level and do everything but if I’m gonna train you it’s going to be done the right way.

Prerequisites

I would recommend googling “Falk Failure Analysis Gears-Shafts-Bearings-Seals” doc.# 108-010 (free) Read this and study it.

You want the “final authority” go to AGMA and purchase the ANSI/AGMA 110.04 Gear Tooth Failure Modes (That’s what I have to reference all my findings to)

You need a little background on what you are looking at and for along with the standard terminology. First time out, lots of pictures help a great deal.

Here’s what you need the microscope for… (A good surface finish gauge will be a great help too)

When I say microscope I mean something like a dyno lite (highest mag you can get) that is removable and you can surface scan with.

We will be looking at metal. Metal is unique in that it will hold the last failure state. (Assuming the spin down doesn’t grind it all away- this does happen)

With that said, you will be looking at the grain pattern, contact angles, type and direction of spalling, angle and depth of pitting, Plastic deformation, differentiating between abrasive and adhesive wear and quantification of Hertzian fatigue. (To start with)

The naked eye just cannot do this.

Background Info

(I’ll go into much more detail after you read that stuff and we move to part 2. We really need to be on the same sheet of music)

If you can’t get all this we can wing it but the more you know- the less you have to determine. (This is the short list)

A- Base Material: it’s important to know if this gear was born from a casting, stamping, machined from a drawn or forged billet. This gives you an idea of the stresses the gear was designed to handle. (I say this because I can almost guarantee you they will never release their design and load standards so you have to “guess”) If you can get the actual alloy type that’s beautiful too but not really critical at this point as much as knowing how the billet was formed.

B- Nominal Gear Dimensions: They will usually give you that and you really need to know where to start and reference to because the amount of wear is as important as the pattern

C- Run Factors:
If available the load direction (CW, CCW, BI) If you are not the one taking it apart someone needs to index that gear in terms of which way it turns relative to the input shaft.

Also need to know if this is a constant contact gear or intermittent contact

Is it machined on the shaft, keyed, interference fit (no key) and is it dog driven
Need to know if it is bottom or top lubed

The basics- the RPM, Load, Lubricant and if applicable any root or backlash clearances

D- Heat Treatment: For the moment just need to know if the gear was surface or through hardened and then was it normalized and stress relieved ( cold treated) afterward.

E- If possible, good pictures of the gear train from every angle (especially any gear or dog that touches the one in question)

That will get us going anyway

Tooling

(No human being can accomplish a proper gear failure analysis without the correct tooling so assuming you are the level of the average mechanic and the biggest gear you would ever see is about 6” diameter.) If you can’t get all of it we can wing it (to a degree) or find a mate who has them

The scope

Finish gauge

Caliper (with attachments)

Micrometer (the diameter of the gear) with attachments

Surface Block (if it had a dial indicator & stand that would be wonderful but not necessary)

Gear tooth gauge (if you can’t get this then a machinists angle gauge)
White inspection light with magnifier

Advanced (if you really want to get down and dirty)

Get a low end NDT dye kit from someone like Grainger.

Go to a hobby store and get a good quality plastic casting resin. (You won’t always need this but having an inverse 3D casting to work with can be a life saver)

Assumptions

You have to just assume the gear was designed and built properly- if you legitimately suspect this then you are beyond failure analysis and conducting an engineering analysis. Honestly I have never seen or heard of one that was not built properly. (Which is different that the application engineering being wrong when you put a properly made gear in an application beyond its design)

Critical Indicators

You asked in your OP how to differentiate between lubrication and stress related failures. That’s the most basal question in the gear industry and the first one out of every client’s mouth. That’s what we are going to accomplish and it comes from a proper analysis of the critical mechanisms of failure as they relate to the failure mode.

Initially we will examine:

Loading- will tell us deflection, alignment (running) stress vectors and working contact path and LOA

Alignment- all degrees of freedom and with shafting, other gears etc.

Distress/Stressors- Dynamic Forces

Surface Wear- qualifying and quantifying all the pitting, spalling, micro, macro, and a whole lot of stuff

This will tell us where we need to focus.

Let me know when you are ready to start the process.

It would be good to get an old gear just to practice on.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I know a guy pushing 1000whp on a GTr in regular use. I wonder how long his gearbox has lasted. Last I heard, he was more concerned with axles.


R32/33, or new(er) 'Godzilla'? (I suspect the former since you used a small "r")

Would have to be an R32 GTR or R33 GTR. The R34 GTR had a 6 speed manual.

I'm not sure what NISMO specials had. Some of them might have been equipped with 6-speeds.
 
ISO - thanks for that. Epic post! Will grab the falk doc and see if i can locate a broken gear.
 
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