Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Additives exist, in the EP and AW categories to help chain lube. Aftermarket chlorinated parrafins, esters of different types, ceramic boron or other nano particles do the job.
Originally Posted By: ISO55000
Sure they do “the job” (which is indefinable) but let me point out that “helping” is a meaningless word and not really applicable because if they cannot access the pins in a 100% fashion the only thing they are “helping” is rust formation.
Under most normal operating conditions, without injected or misted delivery the time coefficient during application until centrifugal and mechanical forces act on the lubricant. All of those additives work great- too bad they never get to the business part of the chain.
By "helping" of course I define that as less wear with the EP/AW additives than white oil. Is lubrication in boundary conditions ever perfect? Of course not. Reducing wear and friction over white oil alone is all we can get.
Your comments about "never get to the business part of the chain" seem odd. Since the 1 micron particles and 1 nanometer polar metal affinitive molecules are small, they can fill the micro-valleys in the metal wearing surfaces of the chains with something like 20 microns of clearance.
It really comes down to what works the best. We could lube all chains with straight mineral oil (no additives) and then compare that to what happens in a normal motor oil which has ZDDP, maybe moly, boron, polymer esters, titanium, etc., and see how much the chain elongates in both cases. All your reasoned arguments are interesting yet proof by results would be nice to see.
Hi FF
Let me comment a little bit further because as always in a forum there is always a follow on unless one wants a thesis level answer covering every possible contingency that nobody would read.
By "helping" of course I define that as less wear with the EP/AW additives than white oil. Is lubrication in boundary conditions ever perfect? Of course not. Reducing wear and friction over white oil alone is all we can get.
The use of the word “helping” was responding in kind and quote to another post ( not the word I would have chosen but I do try to use as little technobabble as is possible except when doing an engineering specific presentation)
The reality is (regardless of application) lubrication effectiveness is a triangle. (Thus the term “tribology”) Even if you had 100% extra virgin unicorn gel that was perfect in every way, if the friction and wear components are not addressed equally the lubricant cannot deliver the maximum effectiveness and premature or unacceptable wear leading to failure will occur.
People who are not in this business professionally (not just the lubrication engineering on the front end but the failure analysis on the back end) don’t see the whole story.
I doubt this has ever or will ever be done on a car engine simply because of cost but in my world when you have a 100k chain change out with associated DT @ 20k per hour for 8-10 hours and probably 20 of these a year- the client WILL demand an engineered evaluation of the failure and then demand a corrective action that WORKS.
As the 3rd party doing this, the “proof by results” you reference is something I not only have to guarantee but then produce or my performance bond is in jeopardy. Under those conditions with the risks involved, I cannot afford to listen to anecdotal information, wild eyed manufacturer’s claims, blame casting, opinions or anything else. I have to investigate every little detail, consult with peers and other relative professionals, apply the proper technology and then prove not only my findings but the corrective actions.
(Every time I present a finding there is always going to be someone/thing at fault and cost big money and then the bayonets come out even to the point of being “unprofessional” but that’s just a normal part of doing business in this field. You get used to it but it forces us to stick to the basics, take nothing for granted, make every scenario “zero based” so the evidence builds the case individually on the incident specifics then triple check the answers.)
On this ( not sharp shooting you but this is something I encounter frequently and have to dispel for many clients because they were “beguiled” by the oil vendors long before I got there and I have to start from the bottom and prove my way up)
Your comments about "never get to the business part of the chain" seem odd. Since the 1 micron particles and 1 nanometer polar metal affinitive molecules are small, they can fill the micro-valleys in the metal wearing surfaces of the chains with something like 20 microns of clearance.
Sounds good on the surface but the operative word there is “can” (not will). This goes back to that triangle of tribology and then all the forces acting against the liquid in operation (fluid dynamics).
Yes if you take said chain and dropped it in the pail of oil and left it a while, everything you said will happen for the reasons you state.
Now let’s add 200 RPM and load- this not only centrifugally creates forces that want to sling a liquid away it creates overpressure zones due to turbulence that a static body of lubricant may not be able to overcome (force always takes the path of least resistance) then even when it gets there if the film strength is not superior to the contacting forces then it is inadequate for proper protection. There are many other forces acting against that lubricant as well but you get the idea.
Use this simple test to illustrate that: take a piece of paper towel and grip it in your palm and make a fist. Stick that in a sink for 2-3 seconds. Remove it and look at the difference between the ends versus what’s in your closed hand. That’s a very close approximation of just one of the affecting factors that has to be overcome.
What that basically affirms is that (in my experience) well over 90% of (alleged) lubrication failures have little to nothing to do with the lubricant proper but with everything else affecting the lubrication or otherwise working against it. When I factor out the human stuff (not following recommended guidelines, improper maintenance and all the non-lubrication failure stuff) the overwhelming majority of failures come from forces acting against the lubrication thus prohibiting it from doing what it needs to do. This is why I design a lot of oil mist and direct injection systems for retrofits and the results speak for themselves.
Lastly
All your reasoned arguments are interesting yet proof by results would be nice to see.
A lot of my stuff is protected as IP or under confidentiality or turned over to the client with us not allowed to retain but I have tons of stuff that can be sterilized. What would you like and I’ll see if I can’t whip something up? I have no problem backing up what I say because I have to do it as part of the job anyway and I’m always playing to a hostile crowd. (Except when I expressly state it as an opinion because I don’t promote, defend or argue thoughts or preferences, just facts I can prove)
