Learning to fly

[Astro14]

I posted this in a now locked thread. I'm reposting here to simply talk about learning to fly.

No religion.

No Politics.

No current events that attract the trolls...

You guys would be frightened to know that! I had very little time, less than most, right at the minimums (no repeated flights, no cancellations) for each phase of flight...and I am in the middle of transposing my USN Logbook into excel, so I can answer your question precisely.

The first airplane that I ever flew was the T-34C. Turbine, retractable gear, acrobatic.

Solo'd the T-34C at 14.4 hours, total time. Ever. And that's not pattern work, I flew out into our working area...

Next airplane: T-2C. Twin engine jet, acrobatic, carrier-capable.

Solo'd the T-2C at 94.8 hours total time. There was more to be done in the T-34C, formation, instruments, acrobatics, so I finished up with 67.9 T-34C hours. Flew it out to the MOA, did some acrobatics, came back to Meridian and practiced my landings.

Flew it solo aboard a carrier (The "Lady Lex") with 165.8 hours.

By then, I had flown it in air to air gunnery, acrobatics, on instruments, everything. Flying the hundred miles or so from Pensacola out to the Lex was a piece of cake. Landing it was a challenge, it was the first time I had ever seen a carrier.

Next airplane: TA-4J. Single engine jet, acrobatic, attack and carrier capable. First solo at 202.7 total time. Same as the T-2, out to the MOA, flew acrobatics, came back and practiced landings. Went on to fly formation, drop bombs, fire to 20mm guns, and land on a carrier. I would call the A-4 an awesomely capable single seater...while our TA models lacked the nuke capability, we could carry all sorts of bombs and had twin 20mm guns in the wing root. It would roll quickly, turn well, and was easily capable of flying over 500 KIAS at low level.

Next airplane: F-14A Tomcat. Twin engine, variable geometry, supersonic fighter. First flight was my first flight, no back seat flights, no dual-control models. Total time: 281.6 hours

I flew my first combat mission with 699.6 hours. By then, I was pretty comfortable in the jet, and my first mission was night launch, night recovery.

The real point, I think, is this: hours are not all the same. My hours were high-pressure, focused, and demanding. I was flying airplanes upside down before most civilians had even solo'd an airplane. I was landing a twin engine jet on a carrier, solo, before most folks ever flew a twin.

We washed a lot of guys out, and we had a few memorial services along the way, but the training really was outstanding.

 

[Astro14]

Let me start by saving that I applied to the USAF, and was accepted in the summer of 1986. The USAF produces some of the finest pilots in the world, has some of the best airplanes in the world, and I would have been proud to be part of that organization...but I was just crazy enough as a young man to want "fly close formation with a moving ship until they collided with the pitching deck in a semi-controlled crash"...except that it was precisely controlled...and a lot more fun than a crash...

This was from D4D:

As a former Blue Suiter and Instructor/Check Pilot in USAF Air Training Command, Astro's comments are equally applicable to USAF Pilot Training. Our pilot candidates came to initial jet training from the Zoo (USAFA), college AFROTC, and OTS. All had at least undergone basic flying screening programs that included solo flight in light aircraft. Many went on to obtain their Private license after the initial screening portion was over.

After entering USAF Pilot Training, they received about a 100 hour initial jet program in the T-37, side by side jet trainer. Like Astro, we taught them aerobatics,spin recovery, formation, instruments, low level VFR nav, etc. After that, we soon turned them loose solo in the supersonic T-38 advanced trainer for another 100-125 hours or so to further hone their newly learned skills in formation, aerobatics, instruments, low level VFR navigation, etc. At the end of their year long Undergraduate Pilot Training pipeline, they had accumulated some 200-225 flying hours in jet aircraft that was extremely challenging in its scope, and pacing. Of course, along with the flying, came the endless hours of academic instruction in instrument procedures, supersonic aero, formation procedures, emergency procedures,etc. Unlike Astro, our pilot trainees were too smart to fly a jet out into the Gulf of Mexico and try to fly close formation with a moving ship until they collided with the pitching deck in a semi-controlled crash by snagging the 1-3 wire.

At the end of UPT, the students were rated by their T-38 IP's and determined to be Fighter/Attack/Recce (FAR) qualified or not. Could they go straight to follow-on training in a single seat airplane (F-16, F-15, A-10, etc) or did they need more seasoning in a crew aircraft (KC-135, B-52, C-141, etc)? Much of the assignment process was of course driven by the block of aircraft available for that class.

Bottom line: I would put a brand new USAF Pilot Training graduate with only about 200-225 hours in any airline cockpit in the world. Their experience level and procedural knowledge, although newly minted jet pilots, was superb. These were really bright young men and women who excelled at everything that was asked of them...they were easily teachable in any follow-on pipeline.

I am not suggesting that US military trained pilots are without peer in the airline industry. In fact, just the opposite. Over my 25 year airline career from narrow body F/O to wide body Capt, I flew with some excellent pilots who were civilian trained. The difference was in the end product out of our initial training pipeline vs. a similar university aviation program and their flight experience and knowledge at that time. With years of accumulated experience, the differences began to diminish. Others on this board instructed in the airline environment and can speak to some of those issues.

 

[Astro14]

So, how about you guys? I know we've got a couple of private pilots, and a couple of airline pilots on the forum...

How did you learn to fly?

 

[4wheeldog]

I came from the opposite end of flight training......Learned to fly at the local airport on my own dime, in my mid thirties. Initial training in a Piper Warrior, switched to the less forgiving Traumahawk when it became available. Bought into a Cherokee 140 about halfway to getting my license. Flew that for 3 years before it was sold, and I bought half of a Cessna 210.

In light of your military experience, I have a quick tale to tell. I had been flying for about 5 years, and had about 1200 hours. The guy on the field with a P51 taxied it up to the wash rack. Before taking it back to the hangar, he came up on the porch, where I happened to be. Being a smart [censored], I offered to taxi it back down for him. He said "Go ahead.....You don't need keys, and the checklist is on the seat." My reply was that I was in no way qualified to operate such an ancient and high end aircraft. His response made me think......"When that plane was a frontline fighter, the boys flying them went into combat with 200 hours. You have way more experience, and probably better judgment!"

My better judgment is what kept me from excepting his offer. I would have happily flown that thing, with him in the backseat. But taxi-ing it solo........Seemed more challenging, and frought with possible unforeseen consequences.

 

[Astro14]

I think your judgement was sound.

I've heard that taxiing that airplane, with the nose up so high, and the only a castering tail wheel, was quite a challenge...you had to S-turn down the taxiway to look out either side of the airplane and see what was in front of you!

The Rolls-Royce designed, Packard-built Merlin is one of the world's great engines. There's a P-51 in a museum near me that is kept in flying condition...and regularly flown...and there is nothing quite like the sound of that V-12!

http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org/

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Nothing like the sound of a Merlin V 12. The New Mexico ANG had P-51s in the fifties and we saw a lot of Mustangs around Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque.

 

[Cujet]

I don't feel that today's training in a Cessna 150 thru 172 is all that valid. Those aircraft are so unresponsive and perform so poorly, the skill learned is simply staying upright and aloft.

I find it surprising when people claim that a 200HP Mooney is "too much" airplane. It's not. In fact, it's also a non responsive under-performer. Requiring those same skills of simply keeping an underpowered aircraft aloft and upright. Sure, I'd love to own one, because it's better than my Cessna. But, I'm not fooling myself either.

I regularly fly real aircraft and clearly understand...

 

[jorton]

I'm not a pilot but your post brings back memories from my younger years.

I was stationed on an aircraft carrier 1977 - 1980. During overseas deployments I worked 7pm - 7am so I spent much of my free time topside, watching flight operations. The air wing was flying 7 days a week, basically dawn to dusk. Two F-14 Tomcat squadrons were assigned to the ship.


One night I was on vultures row, alone, watching 7 aircraft trying to land in the dark, in heavy seas, heavy rain, and high winds. The ship was rocking bow to stern. There were 2 A-6's(1 KA-6 tanker), 2 A-7's, 2 F-14's, and 1 EA-6B Prowler. All 7 tried to land 2 times, and all 7 ended up flying to Sicily to land. I witnessed MANY near crashes. I can not imagine how it felt for the pilots and air crews to be so near to death that night.

 

[Astro14]

Jorton, that's quite a night!

I think we've all had some rough ones...but diverting all the airplanes is rare...

Until you've spent some time on Vulture's Row, or on the LSO Platform (where I spent eight years), it's hard to describe how loud, how close, how fast, and how dramatic carrier landings really are....

Or how dark the ocean can be on a rainy night...

 

[Eddie]

I learned to fly a Cessna 150. Ed

 

[wwillson]

Astro,

Thank you for reposting!

I got my private over the summer between my freshman and sophomore year in college. Most of my time and my check ride was in a Piper Tomahawk. I built time as I could afford during college. My instrument and single engine commercial check rides were during my senior year of college and my single engine land CFI check ride was just after I graduated from college. I worked as a flight instructor for about a year in which I earned the CFII and multi-engine instrument and commercial. In all, I gave about 1500 hrs of dual ranging from primary, instrument, and commercial tickets. My opinion was that I really learned how to fly by teaching others. The depth of understanding required to successfully teach others simply made me a much better aviator. I haven't given any instruction for years, but maintain my instructor certificate and will surely teach again someday.

Wayne

 

[JHZR2]

I should find my FIL's records. He has a lot of good stories, he owned a number of airplanes for business purposes, and even took some cross-country (not very exciting on the surface, but I think they were essentially ex-governemnt planes from WWII or earlier era that he was flying in the 70s).

Great reading.

Any chance there was Top Gun training somewhere in the mix?

 

[Spazdog]

My flight experience is limited to the Rotec Rally 3 and Rally 2B.

My dad had a plan to sell ultralights when he retired from the Army. Turned into more of a moneypit than he anticipated and he went to work for PHI flying offshore. Went to the police department afterwards to fly for them but the "good ol'boy" system was firmly in place. (if you have been a Division Aviation Safety Officer and have flown a large number of combat and civillian hours, you should be more than qualified for Police duty) He remained a patrol officer for the rest of his career.

His call sign was mentioned a couple of times in Chuck Carlock books

After learning to fly in piston engined TH-55s at Fort Wolters, the UH-1 was, in his words, "A Cadillac". Even underpowered UH-1C gunships that have to be slid along the PSP and bounced into translational lift were superior.

The UH-1 Iroquois "Huey" is still his favorite airplane. He ran into one of his old left seaters (AC-PIC sits on the right in a helicopter) at a Vietnam reunion. They sat in a Huey and he said it was like 30 years disappeared in a heartbeat. Everything just felt right. Right where he had left it.


My favorite story from my dad is not a war story at all. Following the Bhola Cyclone disaster, the US and USSR sent Army units for humanitarian aid. The US Army aviators made several attempts to speak to the Soviet pilots and eventually took them up in their UH-1Ds. Let the Soviet pilots fly the Hueys. (It was hardly a top-secret machine. Regular Army utility helicopters. If the Soviets had wanted one they just had to reach out to North Vietnam.)

Following the flight, the Soviet pilots went silent. Walked back to their area and did not say another word to the Army Aviators. They would absolutely not let them anywhere near their Mi-4 Hounds.

It took some liquoring up, but the Soviet aviators eventually started opening up. "We did not know that helicopters were made like that or could fly like that. We did not let you fly our helicopters because we are embarrassed."

I hope somewhere, a Soviet pilot told his son about flying American helicopters, smiled and said, "that was a nice machine."

My father in law was a Radar Navigator on a SAC B-52 crew. Few good stories from him too. A lot of stories about how miserable Glasgow AFB was in winter too. He liked the Philippines much better.

 

[fdcg27]

IIRC, you have a 177, which was considered a hot airplane as compared to the 172.
Still, the Cardinal faded away while the 172 soldiered on, went through a long lapse in production and then returned.
While you may call the 172 unrepsonsive, many would call it safe.
It would be difficult for the most clueless and ham-fisted pilot to get himself into trouble in a 172, although it does happen.
The 172 is exactly what Cessna was aiming for. It has enough useful load to allow for full tanks, a couple of 200 lbs people and as much bagage as you can fit while still being well below maximum allowable gross and center of gravity is rarely a concern.
The 150/152 is a little more responsive than is the 172.
The 150/152 can be made to enter a spin pretty easily, while the 172 practically has to be held in a spin.
While the 172 may not be a speedy airplane, it's a vitual jet as compared to the 150/152.
The two place Cessna is so slow and so lacking in useful load as to be virtually useless for anything beyond training or local flights by someone who just wants to spend a little time off of the ground on a pleasant summer day.
These aircraft may not be challenging or demanding, but they are exactly what Cessna designed them to be way back when.

 

[wwillson]

fdcg27,

You are right on with the difference in spinning a 172 vs 150/152. You'll have to work hard to keep the 172 in a spin, but it's almost not possible. Even with full power and full left rudder, the 172 goes into an incipient spin, but after about a turn, just breaks off into a steep spiral, which is arguably much more dangerous than the spin.

On the contrary, the 150/152 is a spinning machine. If you want a three full turn spin that is a REAL spin, you can get it even without power, just full rudder and full back on the elevator. It will spin until you've had enough, lots of fun.

The tamest steady state spinning airplane I've flown is a Luscomb. The wildest steady state spinner I've flow is the Pitts. In the Pitts, while spinning, if you hold full rudder and push forward on the elevator, it will stay in the spin, but the rate will REALLY increase. It's a wild ride!

Wayne

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The ... Cessna is so slow and so lacking in useful load as to be virtually useless for anything beyond training or local flights by someone who just wants to spend a little time off of the ground on a pleasant summer day.


That is EXACTLY how I feel about my Cessna Cardinal 177RG. I could not have said it better myself!

I'm only half kidding of course. Cessna had a habit of producing underperformers. Mine is barely "acceptable" when solo and 1/2 tank of fuel or less. Otherwise, it's performance is non existent.

Out of Daytona Beach, I had to request the long runway, knowing that the take off performance was really poor when hot and heavy. I cleared the trees by 150-200 feet at the end of a 10,000 foot runway. Pathetic.

Our Extra 300L, however, does what you ask of it. Instead of learning how to balance a bowling ball on top of a wedge (flying a Cessna) , you actually learn how to fly, by having enough power to actually fly in 3 dimensions. And climb rate exceeds 0.681 Miles per hour....

That's right, my climb rate out of DAB was 0.681 Miles per hour in the vertical. Pathetic.

 

[fdcg27]

Okay, but there are also larger, faster Cessna singles.
The 182 is a grownup version of the 172, is significantly faster and can actually carry four adults along with enough fuel to go somewhere.
Bigger and faster with more useful load?
You could look at a 206 or a 210.
If you have enough money to play with, there's always the 208.
Many choices in Cessna singles and they aren't all slow or lacking in useful load or payload capacity.
If you want to go really fast, Cessna bought and built a type developed and certified by someone else, but these airplanes aren't really Cessnas.

 

[OVERKILL]

I have some seat time with one of our pilots in my boss's old plane, a Cirrus SR20. Glass cockpit, very easy to fly IMHO.

He's just upgraded to the SR22 Platinum, which I haven't been in yet but am looking forward to. Our primary pilot states that it is a fantastic plane.

That about sums up my flight experience, LOL! We have a few guys with their license at work. Seems to be pretty popular.

 

[Astro14]

The Cirrus is a sweet airplane. Fast, easy to fly, well-appointed. My son and I flew from Stowe, VT to Virginia Beach in a friend's SR-22 for the F-14's retirement in 2006. My son was 10 years old at the time. He got to fly the airplane from Morrisville/Stowe airport to ORF and then back a few days later. I sat in the back.

It was very cool...

 

[OVERKILL]

Nice! I bet he had an absolute hoot!