European's historical usage of "thick oil"....

[Shannow]

What if it's not the autobhan and the sustained high speed running, coupled with long OCIs.

What if it's diametrically opposite, short utilisation periods, high fuel dilution...and long OCIs ?

http://papers.sae.org/890874/

Experimental Study on the Actual Uses of the Cars (E.U.R.E.V.)

Quote:
Thirty five gas-driven passenger cars, 7 significant French models in 6 geographical areas, have been studied under actual conditions. Vehicles were fitted with on-board data acquisition systems and sensors allowing to measure at second time intervals, the car speed, the engine speed, the throttle position, the intake manifold depression, the fuel consumption, the engine water and oil temperatures, the intake air temperature, and the use of choke, headlamps, rear-window heater and electrically operated cooling systems fan.
The method used is described and some aspects of actual car uses by their driver(s), over a total of 23,000 kilometers traveled and 580 hours of vehicle running, are analysed: vehicle daily uses rates, durations, and distances travelled; travel characteristics durations, lengths, speeds, and stops numbers; and engine running conditions running ranges, engine speeds, thermal conditions, consumptions, and the uses of the choke, the gears and the auxiliary equipment.

A mean of 5.5 car uses per day is observed, with significant differences between drivers or areas. A great number of short-length travels should be noted: 26% of the travels do not exceed 1 kilometer, 52% are less than 3 kilometers.

The average speed over all the study is about 40 km/h. Ninety percent of the trip duration is traveled at a speed less than 90 km/h, covering 72% of the distance.

Engine speeds are not very high: 90% of the duration at a speed less than 3000 rev/mn. Around one trip out of two is started by means of the manual choke, and 40% of the distance traveled are needed to warm up the engine (water temperature less than 80°C).


Yeah, old paper...manual chokes...but historical comes from past practices.

The utilisation pattern reflected here is not hour long commutes in bumper to bumper traffic...it IS reflective of high fuel prices with generally available public transport, in that most of the run times are short and focussed.

Just food for thought.

 

[wemay]

'40% of distance needed for warm up.' Interesting.

 

[Boomer]

I used to travel a lot in Germany through the 80's, 90's and in the early 2000's. What always intersted me was the reticence among a large number of Germans to use public transportation. They would drivea car a few kilometers following, for example, the S-bahn track or U-bahn track and then pay to park in the downtown area. Their rationale was that public transportations was "expensive." Howev er, many of the parking fees w=for the day were higher than a ticket on the train! I suspect like all of us they enjoyed driving their cars but living in a very condensed nation, the distances were quite short for many people.

I never rented cars in Europe. Inside Germany, I always went between cities by train and used the short rail systems in the cities. Much calmer experience and a lot more fun.

 

[Claud]

In the UK in the '60s 20w50 was the oil recommended by most mainstream manufacturers. Perhaps the design engineers recognised that much of the time the cars would be making short journeys with the engine not properly warmed up, and were for compensating for anticipated oil dilution. More likely in my view was that British cars and the engines that went in them were built to much looser tolerances than US contemporary ones, and needed a thicker oil to adequately lubricate the engine bearings.
I don't know if this is true, but I understand that when Packard started making Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2 they immediately reduced the tolerance levels to much tighter levels.
Making everything to close tolerance was something Henry Ford understood in his quest to make cheaper and cheaper cars. If one guy spent all day making a single component by the thousands, all exactly alike, then assembly line workers could pick up any given part and fit it onto the car without concerns about whether or not it fitted properly.

Claud.

 

[andyd]

Hey, straight 30 is pretty much equal to 20 w 50. My 528e specs 20w50. The M 20 engine will run forever if you keep ahead of timing belts. Short hauls on a carbed engine would gas the oil . Thick oil would resist this better. The main thing Packard did for the Merlin was to standardize the dimensions. You English favor hand built stuff and lots of filing for loose tolerances. Guys bench building engines. Mass production was why the Allies prevailed. The matériel wasn't exceptional, but there was plenty of it.

 

[fdcg27]

But isn't it nice that the same relatively thick grade will do as good a job in protecting jeder popel's short-tripped Opel as it will it the BMW Hans drives like he stole on his daily commute?

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: wemay
'40% of distance needed for warm up.' Interesting.


certainly true for me... the car needs about 30 minutes of running time in the morning (ambient temps in the thirties F at the moment) before reaching an indicated 90°C.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: andyd
Hey, straight 30 is pretty much equal to 20 w 50. My 528e specs 20w50. The M 20 engine will run forever if you keep ahead of timing belts. Short hauls on a carbed engine would gas the oil . Thick oil would resist this better. The main thing Packard did for the Merlin was to standardize the dimensions. You English favor hand built stuff and lots of filing for loose tolerances. Guys bench building engines. Mass production was why the Allies prevailed. The matériel wasn't exceptional, but there was plenty of it.
The Garrand was pretty bleep exceptional. Ad the Utah boy's .50 which ended up on every Allied aircraft, and can still be found TODAY as standard issue on vehicles.

 

[expat]

I oftenn thought that engine oil might be specified bases on the Lowest ambient temperature the engine is likely to face.

Europe South America and -Australia do not normally se the -15 -20 -30C that is often seen in the Northern U.S. States or Canada.

What I'm saying is, perhaps North America is the Thin Oil anomaly ?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: andyd
Hey, straight 30 is pretty much equal to 20 w 50. My 528e specs 20w50. The M 20 engine will run forever if you keep ahead of timing belts. Short hauls on a carbed engine would gas the oil . Thick oil would resist this better. The main thing Packard did for the Merlin was to standardize the dimensions. You English favor hand built stuff and lots of filing for loose tolerances. Guys bench building engines. Mass production was why the Allies prevailed. The matériel wasn't exceptional, but there was plenty of it.


It is generally recognized that Packard built better Merlins than RR, but then Packard also built better cars than RR.

 

[camrydriver111]

Of course it's not autobahn usage. Did anyone here really think Europeans take nice long drives on the autobahn everyday?

 

[Jetronic]

some don't need an autobahn to reach triple digit speeds though...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Just food for thought.

I don't like being cynical, but I think a lot of the oil recommendations (by country) can be decoded very easily if one asks how the oil viscosity recommendation and OCI are protecting the company, not the car. Are they protecting against potential hard use, fuel dilution, and extremely long OCIs that might occur under warranty? Or, are they protecting emissions systems warranty and CAFE credits? Are they protecting their reputation as low maintenance? Are they protecting their fuel economy reputation?

There is always a fairly wide range of viscosities that will protect an engine under a variety of circumstances.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,

Originally Posted By: Claud
In the UK in the '60s 20w50 was the oil recommended by most mainstream manufacturers. Perhaps the design engineers recognised that much of the time the cars would be making short journeys with the engine not properly warmed up, and were for compensating for anticipated oil dilution. More likely in my view was that British cars and the engines that went in them were built to much looser tolerances than US contemporary ones, and needed a thicker oil to adequately lubricate the engine bearings.
I don't know if this is true, but I understand that when Packard started making Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2 they immediately reduced the tolerance levels to much tighter levels.
Making everything to close tolerance was something Henry Ford understood in his quest to make cheaper and cheaper cars. If one guy spent all day making a single component by the thousands, all exactly alike, then assembly line workers could pick up any given part and fit it onto the car without concerns about whether or not it fitted properly.

Claud.


Claud,
the 20W-50 viscosity was formulated by Duckhams in 1958-9 purposely for the BMC Austin/Morris "Mini". It needed this because of the high permanent shear rate of the lubricant solely due to the combined engine/gearbox

The BMC "A", "B" and "C" engines in most applications used 20W-20 or 20-30 viscosities Worldwide with excellent results - as did most other British engines of the 1950-60s. 10W-30 was also extensively used in this period. The 20W-50 viscosity quickly became the "fix-it" lubricant for high oil consumption due to wear and neglect - and because of extensive advertising by both Duckhams and Castrol

Other Euro OEMs didn't quickly jump onto the 20W-50 viscosity - many never did!

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,

Originally Posted By: Claud
In the UK in the '60s 20w50 was the oil recommended by most mainstream manufacturers. Perhaps the design engineers recognised that much of the time the cars would be making short journeys with the engine not properly warmed up, and were for compensating for anticipated oil dilution. More likely in my view was that British cars and the engines that went in them were built to much looser tolerances than US contemporary ones, and needed a thicker oil to adequately lubricate the engine bearings.
I don't know if this is true, but I understand that when Packard started making Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2 they immediately reduced the tolerance levels to much tighter levels.
Making everything to close tolerance was something Henry Ford understood in his quest to make cheaper and cheaper cars. If one guy spent all day making a single component by the thousands, all exactly alike, then assembly line workers could pick up any given part and fit it onto the car without concerns about whether or not it fitted properly.

Claud.


Claud,
the 20W-50 viscosity was formulated by Duckhams in 1958-9 purposely for the BMC Austin/Morris "Mini". It needed this because of the high permanent shear rate of the lubricant solely due to the combined engine/gearbox

The BMC "A", "B" and "C" engines in most applications used 20W-20 or 20-30 viscosities Worldwide with excellent results - as did most other British engines of the 1950-60s. 10W-30 was also extensively used in this period. The 20W-50 viscosity quickly became the "fix-it" lubricant for high oil consumption due to wear and neglect - and because of extensive advertising by both Duckhams and Castrol

Other Euro OEMs didn't quickly jump onto the 20W-50 viscosity - many never did!


But, Before 20w-50 what was mostly used.........straight 30?

 

[zach1900]

Thicker oils do warm up quicker due to friction.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
expat - yes, Castrolite (20W-20), Castrol XL (20-30 were the benchmark products. SAE20 and SAE30 were popular. Castrol's XXL (30-40) was used in some oil burners. 10W-30 came on board during the mid 1950s

Many older US cars used SAE20 or SAE30 prior to 10W30 being sold

 

[Claud]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,

Originally Posted By: Claud
In the UK in the '60s 20w50 was the oil recommended by most mainstream manufacturers. Perhaps the design engineers recognised that much of the time the cars would be making short journeys with the engine not properly warmed up, and were for compensating for anticipated oil dilution. More likely in my view was that British cars and the engines that went in them were built to much looser tolerances than US contemporary ones, and needed a thicker oil to adequately lubricate the engine bearings.
I don't know if this is true, but I understand that when Packard started making Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2 they immediately reduced the tolerance levels to much tighter levels.
Making everything to close tolerance was something Henry Ford understood in his quest to make cheaper and cheaper cars. If one guy spent all day making a single component by the thousands, all exactly alike, then assembly line workers could pick up any given part and fit it onto the car without concerns about whether or not it fitted properly.

Claud.


Claud,
the 20W-50 viscosity was formulated by Duckhams in 1958-9 purposely for the BMC Austin/Morris "Mini". It needed this because of the high permanent shear rate of the lubricant solely due to the combined engine/gearbox

The BMC "A", "B" and "C" engines in most applications used 20W-20 or 20-30 viscosities Worldwide with excellent results - as did most other British engines of the 1950-60s. 10W-30 was also extensively used in this period. The 20W-50 viscosity quickly became the "fix-it" lubricant for high oil consumption due to wear and neglect - and because of extensive advertising by both Duckhams and Castrol

Other Euro OEMs didn't quickly jump onto the 20W-50 viscosity - many never did!


That makes sense, Doug. My parents had fwd BMC cars at the time, so a few cans of Duckhams 20w50 were always in the garage.
The automatic BMC 1100/1300 cars were supposed to be run on straight 30 weight. The transmission shared its oil with the engine, just like the manual cars. Probably not a good idea, the transmissions mostly wouldn't go more than 50,000 miles before they were through.

Claud.

 

[hattaresguy]

Europeans like their oil to last forever and their spark plugs to need changing every 5 minutes. Americans don't like changing spark plugs but love changing oil.

Its a cultural thing, at least it used to be now modern cars are all the same.

 

[expat]

What was the oil recommendation for the Lada in the former Soviet Union?