I think OPE manufacturers like to use ethanol as an excuse when their eighty cent fuel systems fail. My lawnmower's carb lasted a whole year without intervention, despite the fact it never saw a lick of ethanol. Then it failed miserably.
Ethanol and Carburetors
- Thread starter Oldswagon
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IMO most of the carbs in OPE engines are so poorly made, one makes you wonder why or how they would work from day-1, letting alone how long they would last.
For example: Walbro clones used in B&S side-draft carb'ed engines: the throttle shaft is plastic and loose on the shaft bore; plate doesn't close properly and the variation from one carb to another would make a mech like me who rebuilt smaller japanese carbs shiver...
and yes, you think they would last in ordinary fresh fuel, letting alone E10, w/o eventual failures.
And yes, just like internet rumours, local lazy mechs and OPE shop repairman likes to lay blame on E10 fuel, period.
Bottomline: gasoline-based fuel will deteriorate and gum up (corrode the parts within) as it goes sour. They (light-weight gasoline) are meant to be consumed in relatively short order (in the matter of weeks, not months) due to their volatility nature, and they do not hold up well when exposed to air (oxidation) and moisture (decomposition) over an extended period of time.
Q.
For example: Walbro clones used in B&S side-draft carb'ed engines: the throttle shaft is plastic and loose on the shaft bore; plate doesn't close properly and the variation from one carb to another would make a mech like me who rebuilt smaller japanese carbs shiver...
and yes, you think they would last in ordinary fresh fuel, letting alone E10, w/o eventual failures.
And yes, just like internet rumours, local lazy mechs and OPE shop repairman likes to lay blame on E10 fuel, period.
Bottomline: gasoline-based fuel will deteriorate and gum up (corrode the parts within) as it goes sour. They (light-weight gasoline) are meant to be consumed in relatively short order (in the matter of weeks, not months) due to their volatility nature, and they do not hold up well when exposed to air (oxidation) and moisture (decomposition) over an extended period of time.
Q.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Corn is for pigs not carburetors or sugar.
Is there any proof that putting corn in gasoline is good for the environment?
Just the opposite, including the vast amount of water needed to grow and process it.
You mean the water that is going to fall on the ground anyway to grow it? Only 15% of the entire crop production area of the U.S. is irrigated, and most of that is for general produce production like vegatables, not yellow field corn. There is some irrigation used for corn growing, but pretty minor in the broad scheme of things.
And they have gotten the water use for ethanol production down pretty close to the amount of water needed for petroleum fuel production. Still a little higher, but not much. There is substantially more water wasted by folks watering their landscaping.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Corn is for pigs not carburetors or sugar.
Is there any proof that putting corn in gasoline is good for the environment?
Just the opposite, including the vast amount of water needed to grow and process it.
You mean the water that is going to fall on the ground anyway to grow it? Only 15% of the entire crop production area of the U.S. is irrigated, and most of that is for general produce production like vegatables, not yellow field corn. There is some irrigation used for corn growing, but pretty minor in the broad scheme of things.
And they have gotten the water use for ethanol production down pretty close to the amount of water needed for petroleum fuel production. Still a little higher, but not much. There is substantially more water wasted by folks watering their landscaping.
I have not had many issues with E10 and I have a number of power sports and OPE with carbs.
I seem to remember carb gumming being a problem prior to the advent of E10, so I'm not sure we can blame E10 for that.
I did have an 18 year old sthil blower that I had to clean the carb of what appeared to be corrosion, that could have been due to moisture absorption.
I seem to remember carb gumming being a problem prior to the advent of E10, so I'm not sure we can blame E10 for that.
I did have an 18 year old sthil blower that I had to clean the carb of what appeared to be corrosion, that could have been due to moisture absorption.
For the motorcycles I use a dash of blue/marine Stabil each tank fill. Sometimes the Sportster sits a few months. Don't know if the Stabil is doing any good, but never a issue, yet.
I also use a dash of the Stabil for the OPE too. No issues there either, yet.
I also use a dash of the Stabil for the OPE too. No issues there either, yet.
Thanks for all the input, but I am not sure if anyone really seems to have any input on whether or not zinc or aluminum is a better choice for carburetor construction for long term durability.
An interesting read from a good source.
http://performancebiz.com/features/ethanol-hates-carburetors
I won't get into my experiences with ethanol and carburators because that's not what the OP has asked, but anybody who thinks its anything but poison for their carburated engine has their blinders on. There's only one reason its here folks, and its not because its a greener fuel or because it helps the American farmer out.
http://performancebiz.com/features/ethanol-hates-carburetors
I won't get into my experiences with ethanol and carburators because that's not what the OP has asked, but anybody who thinks its anything but poison for their carburated engine has their blinders on. There's only one reason its here folks, and its not because its a greener fuel or because it helps the American farmer out.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
You mean the water that is going to fall on the ground anyway to grow it? Only 15% of the entire crop production area of the U.S. is irrigated, and most of that is for general produce production like vegatables, not yellow field corn. There is some irrigation used for corn growing, but pretty minor in the broad scheme of things.
And they have gotten the water use for ethanol production down pretty close to the amount of water needed for petroleum fuel production. Still a little higher, but not much. There is substantially more water wasted by folks watering their landscaping.
Practically no farming in California relies on rainwater. That's part of the contentious nature of water here. Farming is the number one use for water in California by far.
We grow some corn around here, but nothing like the Midwest. It is a lot of sweet corn though - I hear second in the US.
You mean the water that is going to fall on the ground anyway to grow it? Only 15% of the entire crop production area of the U.S. is irrigated, and most of that is for general produce production like vegatables, not yellow field corn. There is some irrigation used for corn growing, but pretty minor in the broad scheme of things.
And they have gotten the water use for ethanol production down pretty close to the amount of water needed for petroleum fuel production. Still a little higher, but not much. There is substantially more water wasted by folks watering their landscaping.
Practically no farming in California relies on rainwater. That's part of the contentious nature of water here. Farming is the number one use for water in California by far.
We grow some corn around here, but nothing like the Midwest. It is a lot of sweet corn though - I hear second in the US.
Originally Posted By: Oldswagon
Thanks for all the input, but I am not sure if anyone really seems to have any input on whether or not zinc or aluminum is a better choice for carburetor construction for long term durability.
That ship has long sailed. The only ones making carbs these days (aside from performance applications) are those making them for current OPE, and their concern is cheap, cheap, cheap, not long term durability.
jrmason: I'm sure Driven Racing has a product to sell that will protect those poor souls who have to use ethanol, right?
Thanks for all the input, but I am not sure if anyone really seems to have any input on whether or not zinc or aluminum is a better choice for carburetor construction for long term durability.
That ship has long sailed. The only ones making carbs these days (aside from performance applications) are those making them for current OPE, and their concern is cheap, cheap, cheap, not long term durability.
jrmason: I'm sure Driven Racing has a product to sell that will protect those poor souls who have to use ethanol, right?
I'm not talking about you using additives or promoting them. People referenced in the study do happen to work for a certain company that sells very expensive products. And I wouldn't be surprised if they sold one for this "problem." Don't get me wrong. I'm not some giant fan of ethanol, but it's far from the end of the world, either. Government has been playing with fuel formulation for a very long time, and they're not stopping in the foreseeable future, either. Each time a regulation is changed, some Chicken Little is out there, yet we all keep on plugging.
Ethanol isn't ideal for fuel systems. I agree. The garbage fuel systems we see on a lot of equipment are by far the bigger enemy than ethanol, though.
Ethanol isn't ideal for fuel systems. I agree. The garbage fuel systems we see on a lot of equipment are by far the bigger enemy than ethanol, though.
One thing I think they really hit on was the materials of carburaters vs FI. FI systems run SS fuel lines and make injectors out of similar alloys that are resistent to the etching you see in softer metals. I'm not sure why carbs are still made out of materials that corrode easily from ethanol but it seems even current engines still use materials like zinc and aluminum and brass. Ive become the family MacGyver over the years and have had the pleasant task of reviving small engines that sat for various reasons for 2 or 3 years with gas in them. Its not a pretty site. Some of these machines are inside of 5-6 yrs old and were built well after ethanol became used on a large scale.
Originally Posted By: jrmason
One thing I think they really hit on was the materials of carburaters vs FI. FI systems run SS fuel lines and make injectors out of similar alloys that are resistent to the etching you see in softer metals. I'm not sure why carbs are still made out of materials that corrode easily from ethanol but it seems even current engines still use materials like zinc and aluminum and brass. Ive become the family MacGyver over the years and have had the pleasant task of reviving small engines that sat for various reasons for 2 or 3 years with gas in them. Its not a pretty site. Some of these machines are inside of 5-6 yrs old and were built well after ethanol became used on a large scale.
Carbs are made by casting and "pot metal" casts very well. I've seen the odd FI pressure regulator with a cast case, but injectors and the like are machined.
One thing I think they really hit on was the materials of carburaters vs FI. FI systems run SS fuel lines and make injectors out of similar alloys that are resistent to the etching you see in softer metals. I'm not sure why carbs are still made out of materials that corrode easily from ethanol but it seems even current engines still use materials like zinc and aluminum and brass. Ive become the family MacGyver over the years and have had the pleasant task of reviving small engines that sat for various reasons for 2 or 3 years with gas in them. Its not a pretty site. Some of these machines are inside of 5-6 yrs old and were built well after ethanol became used on a large scale.
Carbs are made by casting and "pot metal" casts very well. I've seen the odd FI pressure regulator with a cast case, but injectors and the like are machined.
I've told this story before, here. Some years ago, after harvest on the farm, my dad and I were a bit bored, and glanced at the tiny, long retired grain auger in the scrap heap. It had been sitting out there in the open, unused and uncovered, for many years, probably a minimum of 15 years, possibly 20 or 25. In any event, it had a little B&S engine on it, and we decided to get it running. Note that it was in a scrap heap. It hadn't been run dry. It hadn't been treated with Stabil. No one fogged the motor. There wasn't a fresh oil change when it was dumped there. It wasn't kept out of the elements.
We got the thing running like new in an extremely short period of time. A rinse of the fuel tank with fresh gas, a bit down the carb, fresh oil, and a wire brush to the spark plug was all it needed. Now, I dare you: Buy a brand new mower, and run whatever you want in it, E10, E0, racing fuel, or whatever, in whatever combination you want and treated with Stabil or whatever else you want. Turn the thing off and toss it in the scrapyard for 15 years plus. Then, let me know how it turns out when you go to restart it.
And you've hit the main point. Ethanol didn't just happen yesterday. It's also not a secret. Yet, OPE manufacturers and lazy OPE mechanics just love to blame ethanol and act as if they're facing the single most monumental engineering challenge in history.
We got the thing running like new in an extremely short period of time. A rinse of the fuel tank with fresh gas, a bit down the carb, fresh oil, and a wire brush to the spark plug was all it needed. Now, I dare you: Buy a brand new mower, and run whatever you want in it, E10, E0, racing fuel, or whatever, in whatever combination you want and treated with Stabil or whatever else you want. Turn the thing off and toss it in the scrapyard for 15 years plus. Then, let me know how it turns out when you go to restart it.
And you've hit the main point. Ethanol didn't just happen yesterday. It's also not a secret. Yet, OPE manufacturers and lazy OPE mechanics just love to blame ethanol and act as if they're facing the single most monumental engineering challenge in history.
I love it!
I was too young to take credit for it, but I remember watching my dad and uncle start up an old Dodge slant 6 in a D series truck that had been wrecked several years before. I dont remember exactly how long, it certainly wasn't 15 years but I have memories of it sitting in the field for at least 6-7 years. After verifying the engine turned over and the plugs were good, they put a fresh battery in it, stuck a length of hose from the fuel pump into a gas can, sprayed some fresh gas from a squirt bottle down into the carb and it lit right off. They had to keep spraying the carb until the fuel picked up and It did run rough for a minute or two but eventually warmed up and smoothed right out. They sold that engine for $125.
I was too young to take credit for it, but I remember watching my dad and uncle start up an old Dodge slant 6 in a D series truck that had been wrecked several years before. I dont remember exactly how long, it certainly wasn't 15 years but I have memories of it sitting in the field for at least 6-7 years. After verifying the engine turned over and the plugs were good, they put a fresh battery in it, stuck a length of hose from the fuel pump into a gas can, sprayed some fresh gas from a squirt bottle down into the carb and it lit right off. They had to keep spraying the carb until the fuel picked up and It did run rough for a minute or two but eventually warmed up and smoothed right out. They sold that engine for $125.
And I think OPE equipment manufacturers (and sporting manufacturers, for that matter) enjoy blaming things upon ethanol. After all, someone else forces people to use ethanol, not the companies, and they do the best they can, right?
I haven't seen a John Deere snowthrower that could actually run at elevated RPMs with no load for the better part of twenty years, which predates the ethanol mandate up here.
I haven't seen a John Deere snowthrower that could actually run at elevated RPMs with no load for the better part of twenty years, which predates the ethanol mandate up here.
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