Engine Design Features That Permit 5w20

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
You can't get much better results than what Kendall got changin oil on a taxi at 10,000 mile intervals going 100,000 miles before an engine teardown. http://www.lubrifiltros.com/pdf/ingles/Taxi_tested_tough.pdf or a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg
For how many miles? Half-a-million? Everybody is parrotting "millions of miles" forgetting to add the word "compounded". Every cabby knows you'd leak like a donkey, if you use 5W-20 only for the life of your crownvic. I don't mind to save fuel and have a bit more power at all, it just application specific. Average barber? Yes. Professional? Let's do real fleet tests. And, please, guys, claiming to run police fleets and doing thousands of UOAs, don't forget to disclaim you did this for the first 100k of the life of the vehicle.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
You can't get much better results than what Kendall got changin oil on a taxi at 10,000 mile intervals going 100,000 miles before an engine teardown. http://www.lubrifiltros.com/pdf/ingles/Taxi_tested_tough.pdf or a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg
For how many miles? Half-a-million? Everybody is parrotting "millions of miles" forgetting to add the word "compounded". Every cabby knows you'd leak like a donkey, if you use 5W-20 only for the life of your crownvic. I don't mind to save fuel and have a bit more power at all, it just application specific. Average barber? Yes. Professional? Let's do real fleet tests. And, please, guys, claiming to run police fleets and doing thousands of UOAs, don't forget to disclaim you did this for the first 100k of the life of the vehicle.


The part about the Kendal taxi test I liked was the audacity to go for 10,000 mile oil change intervals. Engine did look clean for that. Of course not much acid formation happening with staying hot so much with very little cold. Shows Kendall semi-synthetic GT-1 5w-20 keeps oxidation sludge down though.

 

[Y_K]

The old Chevy was bulletproof: would show signs of oil consumption at 600K miles, that's a million kilometers for Mercedes people. Of course, it was achieved on 10W-30.

Again: I don't mind more power and better fuel economy the thinner oil offers, just make your 500+ K miles business case to me, please.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
And, of course, this taken to extremes (Yamaha YZ450 piston)

I wonder if those grooves are in there to hold more oil in residence? Where is the oil control ring? Or is there just not a second ring?

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Cujet
And, of course, this taken to extremes (Yamaha YZ450 piston)

http://www.wossnerpistons.com/images/store/wossner-usa-inc/WOS-8630DC-2_LG.jpg


I wonder if those grooves are in there to hold more oil in residence? Where is the oil control ring? Or is there just not a second ring?

I don't see any rings in that picture, they are all not there for picture purposes only.
Those grooves would keep more oil up there longer. Is that a good idea since temperatures up there will cook an oil to death? You need a continuous cooling flow and splash up there. That design would gum up on you.

 

[Silverado12]

When Ford started using 5W-20, Amsoil came out with a message about the only reason why they did it was for CAFE. I just don't trust oil that thin, but I'm an old timer that's set in my ways. I use 10W-30 in all my cars and truck being here in Central Virginia is a warm climate.

 

[Silverado12]

link removed

Here's the link for that article.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Cujet
And, of course, this taken to extremes (Yamaha YZ450 piston)

I wonder if those grooves are in there to hold more oil in residence? Where is the oil control ring? Or is there just not a second ring?






Yeah, looks like the 2nd ring is MIA and the oil control ring is there instead

Interesting design.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Gas turbine engines in the aviation world universally use very thin ester oils. Even in the gearboxes. They "seem" to last forever, certainly much longer than automotive engines. Even our very highly loaded helicopter gearbox uses BP2380 oil, the very same oil as the engines.

Which leads me to believe there are only a few reasons certain automotive engines have higher viscosity oils. Camshaft/follower loads might be one reason, connecting rod bearing load is certainly another reason (highly loaded engines nearly always use higher viscosity) , and a more remote possibly could be piston ring/skirt lubrication.


Roller bearings, as has been explained before, numerous times, are an entirely different kettle of fish...largely elastohydrodynamic, where the lubricant has been decribed as as "hard as gold" in the EHD region.

GT power stations with plain bearings rely on hydrodynamics, and have a typical ISO32/46 oil.

 

[ledslinger]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
The philosophy could be as simple as "for the CAFE benefit, we'll sacrifice minimal engine longevity"


That gets thrown out there by many here like it's fact.

I don't believe it's been studied and proven. We don't even have any testimonials to that. Not one that I've seen. Lots of people with high mileage Fords around.




You pay for the test and we'll settle it once and for all.

I've never seen a test that confirms if engines will last longer with 5W20 vs 5W30. Anecdotal evidence of engines having long service lives on 5W20 says nothing about how long they would have lasted on 5W30. I am pretty convinced they will last long enough on 5W20, don't know if they'd last even longer on 5W30.

Something I'm pretty sure of is that going to 5W20 for engines that previously ran 5W20 was a bit of a gamble. Somebody did limited testing and stuck their neck out. There are many things in auto engineering that are safer bets and more thoroughly tested than this move was. Conjecture for sure on my part.


Why pay for a test when so many have been done on 5w-20? You can't get much better results than what Kendall got changin oil on a taxi at 10,000 mile intervals going 100,000 miles before an engine teardown. http://www.lubrifiltros.com/pdf/ingles/Taxi_tested_tough.pdf or a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg


Did they do a comparison test with 5W30 under the same conditions?

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Cujet
And, of course, this taken to extremes (Yamaha YZ450 piston)

I wonder if those grooves are in there to hold more oil in residence? Where is the oil control ring? Or is there just not a second ring?




Many big bore, high RPM 4 stroke motorcycle (motocross/enduro) engines have similar pistons.

There are only 2 rings. One compression ring, and one oil control ring.


From what I hear, the anti detonation grooves are for,,, (hahaha) detonation prevention. They hold the gasses in place and prevent uneven mixtures from creating problems. Some pistons have the grooves, some don't.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Originally Posted By: fredfactory


Why pay for a test when so many have been done on 5w-20? You can't get much better results than what Kendall got changin oil on a taxi at 10,000 mile intervals going 100,000 miles before an engine teardown. http://www.lubrifiltros.com/pdf/ingles/Taxi_tested_tough.pdf or a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg


Did they do a comparison test with 5W30 under the same conditions?


No they didn't. Given the excellent results they got with the 5w-20 semi syn they used, doubting if a 5w-30 would do any better. There is a limit to what any oil can do and that 5w-20 in that 10,000 mile oil change test is up against that limit.

 

[wtd]

First of all I don't think the 5.0 in the 2015 Mustangs and trucks require a full synthetic. You can also use the blend. Secondly, the performance pack version of the Mustang doesn't require anything higher than 5W-20 even though this package is pretty much the same as the previous generation's track pack that required the 5W-50.

I personally think you could run anything from 5W-20 to 5W-50 in this engine just like last years version because while there are some internal differences from last years engine, I don't think any of the clearances have changed. For warranty purposes though I would stick to what Ford recommends.

Wayne

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: wtd
First of all I don't think the 5.0 in the 2015 Mustangs and trucks require a full synthetic. You can also use the blend. Secondly, the performance pack version of the Mustang doesn't require anything higher than 5W-20 even though this package is pretty much the same as the previous generation's track pack that required the 5W-50.

I personally think you could run anything from 5W-20 to 5W-50 in this engine just like last years version because while there are some internal differences from last years engine, I don't think any of the clearances have changed. For warranty purposes though I would stick to what Ford recommends. Wayne


Good post Wayne. The 5.0 engines are all basically the same, just their intended usage varies.

The oil must be matched to the duty cycle, hence the differing factory specs...

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: wtd
First of all I don't think the 5.0 in the 2015 Mustangs and trucks require a full synthetic. You can also use the blend. Secondly, the performance pack version of the Mustang doesn't require anything higher than 5W-20 even though this package is pretty much the same as the previous generation's track pack that required the 5W-50.

I personally think you could run anything from 5W-20 to 5W-50 in this engine just like last years version because while there are some internal differences from last years engine, I don't think any of the clearances have changed. For warranty purposes though I would stick to what Ford recommends. Wayne




Good post Wayne. The 5.0 engines are all basically the same, just their intended usage varies.

The oil must be matched to the duty cycle, hence the differing factory specs...


Thanks. I do find it interesting that Ford doesn't recommend the 5W-50 in their performance pack cars like they did for the earlier track pack cars. I have not found anyone yet that knows what the reasoning is for that. Maybe they learned the heavier oil wasn't needed.

Wayne

 

[Whimsey]

Thanks. I do find it interesting that Ford doesn't recommend the 5W-50 in their performance pack cars like they did for the earlier track pack cars. I have not found anyone yet that knows what the reasoning is for that. Maybe they learned the heavier oil wasn't needed.

Wayne [/quote]

Maybe Ford's new Performance Pack cars are not warranted if used on the track or raced. Hence they can use the "standard oil" for warranty purposes

.

Whimsey

 

[Cujet]

And yet, road racers continue to find that super thin oils result in early engine failure, when oil temperatures are allowed to climb.

It's possible that Ford now has track day oil temperature issues under control.

However, there are many, many high performance cars that will, upon track use, operate with excessive oil temperature. Choosing a 5W-20 in such a vehicle is asking for:

And, when detonation occurs, those thin oils go away instantly. Oh, that's right, detonation would never happen today...

 

[eddy21]

Using a thicker oil plays [censored] with the variable valve timing components..

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: eddy21
Using a thicker oil plays [censored] with the variable valve timing components..


Yeah, those fords running the 5W20 only work between 95C and 100C oil temperatures...because at 32F, MC 5W20 is FIFTY times as thick as at 100C, and clearly the variable valve timing doesn't work at those temperatures...

or does it ?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
And yet, road racers continue to find that super thin oils result in early engine failure, when oil temperatures are allowed to climb.

It's possible that Ford now has track day oil temperature issues under control.

However, there are many, many high performance cars that will, upon track use, operate with excessive oil temperature. Choosing a 5W-20 in such a vehicle is asking for:

And, when detonation occurs, those thin oils go away instantly. Oh, that's right, detonation would never happen today...


A picture is worth a thousand words, thanks for posting.