yet another airbus plunged from the sky

[757guy]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Multiple news sites reporting that one of the pilots was locked out of the flight deck during the crash.



wow, i heard that on the news today. i think the industry will have to openly admit the problem of suicidal/terrorist pilots instead trying to sweep it under the rug.

BTW, all my criticism against airbus automation is very misguided and wrong. i apologize.



friendly-jacek,

You say: "i think the industry will have to openly admit the problem of suicidal/terrorist pilots instead trying to sweep it under the rug."

Your statement seems to suggest this is a widespread problem, when in fact, this appears to be only the 2nd probable suicide by airline pilot. There was Egypt Air (not sure on the year) and this latest event. We still don't have the facts on MH370...

Just like your statements on automation, I feel your claim that this is an industry problem being swept under the rug is also misguided and wrong.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
i think the industry will have to openly admit the problem of suicidal/terrorist pilots instead trying to sweep it under the rug.


Wait.....what?

There's nothing to sweep under the rug. I can think of only a few potential cases of intentional pilot crashing including this one. Egypt Air 990 was determined by the NTSB, though Egypt sued the US investigators at NTSB over what they claimed was false interpretation of the voice recorder. Egypt blamed Boeing for that crash. Malaysian Air is still a big question. Silk Air remains in doubt.

One proven, one still controversial, two potential, as yet unproven, events out of hundreds of millions of flights is hardly a "problem". (Roughly 60,000 flights per day. Egypt Air was 20 years ago.)

Pilots are already medically screened twice a year, randomly tested for drugs and alcohol, given psychological tests when hired, recorded while at work, monitored for fatigue...what else would you have us do?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: 757guy

friendly-jacek,

You say: "i think the industry will have to openly admit the problem of suicidal/terrorist pilots instead trying to sweep it under the rug."

Your statement seems to suggest this is a widespread problem, when in fact, this appears to be only the 2nd probable suicide by airline pilot. There was Egypt Air (not sure on the year) and this latest event. We still don't have the facts on MH370...

Just like your statements on automation, I feel your claim that this is an industry problem being swept under the rug is also misguided and wrong.



Quote:
The following is a list of airliner accidents involving (possible or rumored) pilot suicide, compiled from the Aviation Safety Network files. General aviation aircraft are not included.

26 September 1976 – 12 fatalities
A Russian pilot stole an Antonov 2 airplane directed his aircraft into the block of flats in Novosibirsk where his divorced wife lived. (ASN Accident Description)

22 August 1979 – 4 fatalities
A 23 year old male mechanic who had just been fired entered a hangar at Bogotá Airport, Colombia and stole a military HS-748 transport plane. He took off and crashed the plane in a residential area. (ASN Accident Description)

13 July 1994 – 1 fatality
A Russian Air Force engineer stole the aircraft at the Kubinka AFB to commit suicide. The aircraft crashed when there was no more fuel left. (ASN Accident Description)

21 August 1994 – 44 fatalities
A Royal Air Maroc ATR-42 airplane crashed in the Atlas Mountains shortly after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco. The accident was suggested to have been caused by the captain disconnecting the autopilot and directing the aircraft to the ground deliberately. The Moroccan Pilot’s Union challenged these findings. (ASN Accident Description)

19 December 1997 – 104 fatalities
Silk Air Flight 185, a Boeing 737 en route from Jakarta, Indonesia to Singapore, crashed in Indonesia following a rapid descent from cruising altitude. Indonesian authorities were not able to determine the cause of the accident. It has been suggested by amongst others the U.S. NTSB that the captain may have committed suicide by switching off both flight recorders and intentionally putting the Boeing 737 in a dive, possibly when the first officer had left the flight deck. During 1997 the captain experienced multiple work-related difficulties, particularly during the last 6 months. Also at the time of the accident the captain was experiencing significant financial difficulties, which was disputed by the Indonesian investigators. (ASN Accident Description)

11 October 1999 – 1 fatality
An Air Botswana captain who had been grounded for medical reasons took off in an ATR-42. He made several demands over the radio and finally stated he was going the crash the plane. He caused the plane to crash into two parked ATR-42 aircraft on the platform at Gaborone Airport, Botswana. (ASN Accident Description)

31 October 1999 – 217 fatalities
Egypt Air Flight 990, a Boeing 767, entered a rapid descent some 30 minutes after departure from New York-JFK Airport. This happened moments after the captain had left the flight deck. During the investigation it was suggested that the accident was caused by a deliberate act by the relief first officer. However, there was no conclusive evidence. The NTSB concluded that the accident was a “result of the relief first officer’s flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer’s actions was not determined.” The suggestions of a deliberate act were heavily disputed by Egyptian authorities. (ASN Accident Description)

29 November 2013 – 33 fatalities
LAM Flight 470 entered a rapid descent while en route between Maputo and Luanda and crashed in Namibia. Preliminary investigation results indicate that the accident was intentional. The captain made control inputs that directed the plane to the ground, shortly after the first officer had left the flight deck. (ASN Accident Description)


http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

the list is dated 2013 and obviously incomplete. add the germawings incident and probably MH370 as you eluded to. Probably we will never know for sure about MH370, as it was well planned, well executed one.

this source also covers pilot suicide outside airliners: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/just-how-common-are-pilot-suicides/

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Astro14

Pilots are already medically screened twice a year, randomly tested for drugs and alcohol, given psychological tests when hired, recorded while at work, monitored for fatigue...what else would you have us do?


there is no continuing and ongoing psychological screening for starters.

 

[Mr Nice]

Astro,

Sure pilots are given regular tests and screenings.....
But that doesn't mean a person with depression or mental issues can't pass those tests.

When I saw the news of this Airbus crash , the first thing I thought of was the pilot waited for the other to leave, lock door and fly plane into mountain.

 

[757guy]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Pilots are already medically screened twice a year, randomly tested for drugs and alcohol, given psychological tests when hired, recorded while at work, monitored for fatigue...what else would you have us do?


there is no continuing and ongoing psychological screening for starters.


You are incorrect. We are constantly being evaluated for fitness of duty and our entire medical record, including any psychological treatment are evaluated every 6 months by the FAA. In addition, the Air Line Pilots Association has a Professional Standards program that encourages peer level intervention when the need arises.

757 Guy

 

[Astro14]

So, what do you guys propose?

More psych screening that stone cold psychopaths could probably pass without detection? More burdens for an industry that has the highest taxes (yep, we tax airlines more than cigarettes) and the highest standards of safety among any?

What other profession has that? Given their record of killing 300+ people a day (about twice the death toll of this crash...every single day...in the US alone) through mistakes, doctors should start getting the same screening as pilots.

You would save far more lives by focusing where the risks are: medicine, vehicles, etc.

However, those things are not as sensational, so people don't realize how much they are at risk from those factors, and society will focus on inestimably small risks, like pilot suicide, instead of the more likely risks. By focusing on the wrong thing, many more lives will be lost in areas, like medical malpractice, or vehicular safety, where the effort would have yielded far greater results.

How about this rule (present at every major US Airline): Two people in the cockpit at all times. When one pilot is ready to use the lav, a flight attendant comes up, then the pilot can step back. The FA has control of the door, and admits the pilot back in. No locking folks out. No single pilot control.

Not one of your pilot suicide examples had this rule in place.

Simple. Effective. Already in place in the US.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
So, what do you guys propose?

More psych screening that stone cold psychopaths could probably pass without detection? More burdens for an industry that has the highest taxes (yep, we tax airlines more than cigarettes) and the highest standards of safety among any?

What other profession has that? Given their record of killing 300+ people a day (about twice the death toll of this crash...every single day...in the US alone) through mistakes, doctors should start getting the same screening as pilots.

You would save far more lives by focusing where the risks are: medicine, vehicles, etc.

However, those things are not as sensational, so people don't realize how much they are at risk from those factors, and society will focus on inestimably small risks, like pilot suicide, instead of the more likely risks. By focusing on the wrong thing, many more lives will be lost in areas, like medical malpractice, or vehicular safety, where the effort would have yielded far greater results.

How about this rule (present at every major US Airline): Two people in the cockpit at all times. When one pilot is ready to use the lav, a flight attendant comes up, then the pilot can step back. The FA has control of the door, and admits the pilot back in. No locking folks out. No single pilot control.

Not one of your pilot suicide examples had this rule in place.

Simple. Effective. Already in place in the US.


Personally, I think it's incredible that you pilots are as skilled and motivated as you are.
I've heard many stories about the low pay and poor treatment some of you people deal with....and not just as a starting out pilot trying to accumulate flight hours.

I think you folks should be paid much more given the stress and significance of the task at hand.

When I was a kid, pilots were treated as somebody to really look up to. They had well earned respect and admiration.

 

[757guy]

Thank you for your kind words Andrew. It is very much appreciated!

757 Guy

 

[andrewg]

^^ My pleasure!
And thank you for being so dedicated.
99.99% of you folks are truly exceptional and under appreciated.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Astro14


How about this rule (present at every major US Airline): Two people in the cockpit at all times. When one pilot is ready to use the lav, a flight attendant comes up, then the pilot can step back. The FA has control of the door, and admits the pilot back in. No locking folks out. No single pilot control.


i agree. the rule is good. i don't understand why it's not universal.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: andrewg

I've heard many stories about the low pay and poor treatment some of you people deal with....and not just as a starting out pilot trying to accumulate flight hours.



+1

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Astro14


How about this rule (present at every major US Airline): Two people in the cockpit at all times. When one pilot is ready to use the lav, a flight attendant comes up, then the pilot can step back. The FA has control of the door, and admits the pilot back in. No locking folks out. No single pilot control.


i agree. the rule is good. i don't understand why it's not universal.


Just for the record.. Years ago...I was an airline pilot for 15 years.

If....IF I wanted to bring down the plane, even with the other pilot sitting in the cockpit, he would have a hard time stopping me. I don't think he could personally.

It take just a second to invert the plane and it would be very hard to recover it...if it even stayed in one piece. (Don't forget full rudder input ripped a tail off not to long ago killing everyone)

Then the other pilots controls do not disable my controls. It would be a fight while inverted.
This is not even getting into just banking if fully and slamming it into the ground on short final or stalling it and cutting the power.

There is not much defense against a madman up front except not letting him get there or to give up flying.

A Flight Attendant is not going to do Jack.

 

[Pesca]

Especially when pilots are allowed to carry guns in the flight compartement, like in the US.

You cannot stop someone who wants to die.

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: andrewg

So, what do you guys propose?

When I was a kid, pilots were treated as somebody to really look up to. They had well earned respect and admiration.


Q: What separates three loose girls from two alcoholics?
A: The cockpit door!

Q: Whats the difference between a jet engine and a pilot?
A: The jet engine stops whining

Q: What's the difference between a pilot and God?
A: God doesn't think he's a pilot.

 

[friendly_jacek]

true, but the more difficult you make it, the less likely it'll happen. depressed people aren't going to behave in a super aggressive way.

in this case, all that madman had to do was to flip a couple of switches and wait for painless death. it shouldn't be that easy.

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
depressed people aren't going to behave in a super aggressive way.

in this case, all that madman had to do was to flip a couple of switches and wait for painless death. it shouldn't be that easy.


Is that true? Depression Symptoms>> men in particular may even feel angry, aggressive,>>>angry, irritable, and aggressive—picking fights>>>nger in people with depression often stems from narcissistic .... The individual experiences aggression


I bet it must have hurt...Not for long but more pain than an OD or exaust fumes

 

[72te27]

I'm waiting for something a touch more official and factual than a "French Prosecutor" declaring from his office in Paris that the F/O crashed the jet on purpose. He may have. I'm a little leery of jumping to conclusions. Crash explainations are rarely as simple as they may appear. Lots of reports that his breathing remained steady and even to the end. Even a mental case (or perhaps especially a mental case) is going to have involuntary physiological reactions to banging on the door, people screaming or, at least, the ground rising up to meet you. I'm not convinced he was conscious. There are modes on some Airbus aircraft that allow the autopilot to be manipulated through the stick or yoke vs. a mode control panel. Bumping the stick while going unconscious could have put the aircraft into a controlled descent. Not likely and not saying that's what happened, just saying it's a little early for officials over there to be making declarative statements, as the investigation has just started.

 

[fdcg27]

Your point is well taken.
No matter who was in the cockpit with you, if you did something to put the aircraft in a really difficult attitude near the ground, there simply wouldn't be enough room to recover.
The fact that suicide by pilots has been very rare argues against the need for any additional screening of qualified ATPs.
The actions of the first officer in this case go well beyond mere depression and suggest serious mental illness.
Since he had managed to mask his illness so effectively for so many years, it's doubtful that he would have been screened out in any event.
One thing to decide to kill yourself, quite another to take 149 unwilling and unknowing people along for the ride.

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
I'm waiting for something a touch more official and factual than a "French Prosecutor" declaring from his office in Paris that the F/O crashed the jet on purpose. He may have. I'm a little leery of jumping to conclusions. Crash explainations are rarely as simple as they may appear. Lots of reports that his breathing remained steady and even to the end. Even a mental case (or perhaps especially a mental case) is going to have involuntary physiological reactions to banging on the door, people screaming or, at least, the ground rising up to meet you. I'm not convinced he was conscious. There are modes on some Airbus aircraft that allow the autopilot to be manipulated through the stick or yoke vs. a mode control panel. Bumping the stick while going unconscious could have put the aircraft into a controlled descent. Not likely and not saying that's what happened, just saying it's a little early for officials over there to be making declarative statements, as the investigation has just started.


Good points. Maybe the French prosecutor is a little biased when it comes to Germany. Plus, the French legal system assumes guilty till proven innocent.

But bear in mind this is what he said:

Quote:
"We hear the pilot ask the co-pilot to take control of the plane and we hear at the same time the sound of a seat moving backwards and the sound of a door closing," Mr Robin told reporters.

He said the pilot, named in the German media as Patrick S, had probably gone to the toilet.

"At that moment, the co-pilot is controlling the plane by himself. While he is alone, the co-pilot presses the buttons of the flight monitoring system to put into action the descent of the aeroplane.

"He operated this button for a reason we don't know yet, but it appears that the reason was to destroy this plane."