China buying Pirelli

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: asand1
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Are you serious? I bet there was someone when cars started to role who said: It is our own fault, we are allowing these technologies instead of building more horse carriages.
The U.S. is not what it is because we are trying to produce same product for decades with same technologies, but because of INNOVATION!

The U.S. is what it is because it was always looking forward, inventing new stuff etc.


For a long time there was no innovation in the auto industry because union workers did not have to compete, they were guaranteed a job. It was the Japanese that pioneered DOHC and VVT and other such INNOVATIONS. and they took pride in building a high quality product. Unions are just pridefulo, they have no reason for their pride though. What new thing did FORD, GM, and Dodgey invent that wasn't a disaster?




Absolutely agree on DOHC etc (but they did not invent it, as others pointed out). However, I am not sure that it works like that, because Japanese workers are heavily unionized, have health care, good retirement etc. You see, German and other European car makers are heavily unionized and guess what? They sell cars like crazy, and they set up trends. Actually, VW wanted UAW in new factory in TN, but State of TN got scared of that. I mean, can you imagine paying decent wage to worker, health care etc?
Problem with American car makers are not unions, but greed to make quick buck as fast as possible without thinking long term. Every CEO that comes thinks how to impress board as fast as possible, and best way is to cut costs.
We came to the point where average American worker is actually competing with Chinese? What is next when wages in Chine go up? Compete with worker in India, Cambodia etc?
And of course, that same worker will have to pay of his/her student loans, because mostly those right to work states cut education funds like crazy. I am working in higher education, and let me tell you, China is not our problem, we are problem to ourselves, thinking that education should be private good not a public good. Guess what, Chinese educate every year around 100K students in the U.S. and trying to figure out how to do it better.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: asand1
What new thing did FORD, GM, and Dodgey invent that wasn't a disaster?


Henry Ford pioneered the assembly line for use in manufacturing automobiles. And the significant contribution of all three of those companies (look up Willow Run for an example of the contribution from Ford) are a huge part of the reason we are able to have this conversation.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: asand1

For a long time there was no innovation in the auto industry because union workers did not have to compete, they were guaranteed a job. It was the Japanese that pioneered DOHC and VVT and other such INNOVATIONS. and they took pride in building a high quality product. Unions are just pridefulo, they have no reason for their pride though. What new thing did FORD, GM, and Dodgey invent that wasn't a disaster?


No it wasn't, it was the Japanese that primarily revised and managed to produce affordably technologies that were mostly pioneered by the Germans. Basically every safety innovation came from Mercedes for example. [censored], they invented the bloody car, LOL!

VVT was first implemented by the Italians, IIRC, and Ford had DOHC engines before Honda was making cars:

I sense a great deal of revisionist history here. The Japanese have been great at taking features and revising them and making them:

A) Simpler and by extension, usually more reliable.
B) Through A, making them more affordable and subsequently putting them in less expensive cars.

DI for yet another example, was first used by Mercedes in automotive applications. VW/Audi was using it well before anybody else in recent history. But their implementation had issues. Current iterations from Ford, GM and the Japanese, are not plagued by those same issues.

If we compare fuel injection systems from even the 80's, Honda primarily used something that resembled TBI, whilst by 1986, Ford had sequential injection (developed with Intel and Bosch) on anything that wasn't a truck (they got batch-fire port injection).




It goes same with other stuff:
- ABS (Mercedes)
- All rotor brakes (Alfa Romeo).
- Diesel direct injection (sed in 30's in military engines) had usable application when student at University of Graz in Austria figured how to lower vibrations etc. Used first by FIAT Tempra, then Audi 80 1.9tdi.
- Electronic injection (BMW)
- Seat belts (SAAB)
- Air bags (Mercedes)
- ESP (Mercedes)
- HID lights (BMW).
- Common rail injection (FIAT)
- Pumpa-Duse injection (VW-Audi)
etc, etc.
All these inventions came from companies that are heavily unionized, and workers that usually spend all their life working for that company.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: asand1
What new thing did FORD, GM, and Dodgey invent that wasn't a disaster?


Henry Ford pioneered the assembly line for use in manufacturing automobiles. And the significant contribution of all three of those companies (look up Willow Run for an example of the contribution from Ford) are a huge part of the reason we are able to have this conversation.

And that is a point in this conversations.
Sometimes in the end of 70's and 80's bunch of CEO's etc thought they can cut their way to success. Worked for a bit until people figured out a scam.
GM applied same system in Europe with OPEL and SAAB. SAAB did not survived, OPEL somehow did.

 

[Nick1994]

My Pirelli P7's were made in Mexico. No complaints so far.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
My Pirelli P7's were made in Mexico. No complaints so far.

I think that is going to be trend in the near future. Mexico is officially cheaper to make stuff as of this year then China.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Is GM next?



Don't laugh...we've had chinese investors in town here....


Though I'm not so sure it will be GM-Ford might be what they go after....

 

[jeffie7]

People are always so quick to blame China. Food for thought, almost everything we buy that says made in china on it is done so by an American company that ask China to make X product to X spec for X many cents/dollars per unit.

So much blame is placed on China but what it comes down to is people wanting things as cheap as they can get it and American companies trying to get it done as cheap as possible, both for price point, and for pleasing the board/stock holders.

When given the chance, China puts out good products, Apple products is a great example of the quality that can be found within China.

China is made up of a bunch of people, if someone from China is investing the money into buying Pirelli, chances are they will try to keep the quality up to par because if they have the money to buy out Pirelli, they are not stupid people and know that the world will be looking at them and how their product quality will drop. If that happens, their company will lose value and become a bad investment for the guy/group that bought it.

As far as Chinese companies ripping off car parts and such, I've seen my share of it, it's not done by legit companies, it's normally done in a run down shop by a handful of guys and they do get shut down sooner or later, thing is, they reopen somewhere else and the cycle continues, Blame it on China? or handful of guys that are making tons of money ripping people off? If someone sees a way to make a quick buck, they normally try. Regardless of what country they live in.

Easier to blame China as a whole I guess.

I'm sure in the upcoming years we'll see many reviews of the new Chinese owned tires and how they stack up VS the old ones. It will be cool to see how it plays out.

 

[vaejovis2]

Now I understand why my Fiat has P7s it was assembled in Tuluca Mexico. I am switching after 30k to BFG sport comp 2

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: vaejovis2
Now I understand why my Fiat has P7s it was assembled in Tuluca Mexico. I am switching after 30k to BFG sport comp 2

Michelin. Support your local economy

Edit: Now figured BFG is under Michelin lol.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't think we will win this unless we become more concerned and pro active.


I agree. Especially when so many even on here will straight up say that they don't care about their buying choices.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't think we will win this unless we become more concerned and pro active.


I agree. Especially when so many even on here will straight up say that they don't care about their buying choices.

Problem with that is quality. I am done with GY. Last two Eagle's I had I could not balance them after 5K. They were made in the U.S. but seriously?

 

[asand1]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: asand1

For a long time there was no innovation in the auto industry because union workers did not have to compete, they were guaranteed a job. It was the Japanese that pioneered DOHC and VVT and other such INNOVATIONS. and they took pride in building a high quality product. Unions are just pridefulo, they have no reason for their pride though. What new thing did FORD, GM, and Dodgey invent that wasn't a disaster?


No it wasn't, it was the Japanese that primarily revised and managed to produce affordably technologies that were mostly pioneered by the Germans. Basically every safety innovation came from Mercedes for example. [censored], they invented the bloody car, LOL!

VVT was first implemented by the Italians, IIRC, and Ford had DOHC engines before Honda was making cars:

I sense a great deal of revisionist history here. The Japanese have been great at taking features and revising them and making them:

A) Simpler and by extension, usually more reliable.
B) Through A, making them more affordable and subsequently putting them in less expensive cars.

DI for yet another example, was first used by Mercedes in automotive applications. VW/Audi was using it well before anybody else in recent history. But their implementation had issues. Current iterations from Ford, GM and the Japanese, are not plagued by those same issues.

If we compare fuel injection systems from even the 80's, Honda primarily used something that resembled TBI, whilst by 1986, Ford had sequential injection (developed with Intel and Bosch) on anything that wasn't a truck (they got batch-fire port injection).





I'm not claiming that the Japanese; invented any of this, and perhaps pioneered was the wrong term, but they did make it reliable and mainstream. How many production fords came off the assembly line with that dohc monster? You can argue the point all you want but the fact is that the Japanese were light years ahead of the USA in innovation, reliability, and quality. They had good reason to take pride in what they made.

Again, it's not China's fault that we are lazy.

 

[pbm]

Quote.
By the way when it comes to unions. There is a reason why german companies did not need bailout. It is called sense of ownership by average worker that works there who has more interest in building quality product then the one that is not unionized.
Only people in the U.S. who are receiving meaningful welfare are Banks etc.
But, to your joy, we do have a lot right to work states, and we know how that works for them. I spent 7 years in one of those states, and half of State still does not have decent sewage system, windows on public schools are luxury, and have infant mortality rate worse then Libya.
Unless we figure out that education is public good, not private good, yes you should be worried about other countries overtaking the U.S.
In the end, Jaguar and Volvo are in Chinese hands, and? [/quote]

I don't remember German union auto workers smoking weed on their lunch break.

As far as education goes....Education is not only a 'right' but it's also a 'responsibility'. The government is required to provide education but the student (and his/her family) have a responsibility to learn. It's tiring to keep hearing how the system is failing the kids....some of the kids are failing the system.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: asand1

I'm not claiming that the Japanese; invented any of this, and perhaps pioneered was the wrong term,


Then yes, pioneered was the wrong term.

Originally Posted By: asand1
but they did make it reliable and mainstream.


Yes, they (generally) took something that came out of Germany (usually) and found ways of making it less expensive to manufacture, less complex, and by extension, generally more reliable. This allowed them to put this technology in their cheaper cars and so that made that feature more "mainstream".

Originally Posted By: asand1
How many production fords came off the assembly line with that dohc monster?


None, but you could order a mid-60's Ford with an SOHC mill (the 427 "Cammer") as a dealer-installed option

Originally Posted By: asand1
You can argue the point all you want but the fact is that the Japanese were light years ahead of the USA in innovation, reliability, and quality. They had good reason to take pride in what they made.


I don't need to argue the point, you already indicated that you used the word I was taking issue with (pioneered) incorrectly. However, further to the rest of your statement, since you seem to be moving the goal post a bit, I would argue that the Japanese were not further ahead in innovation (compared to the Americans), see my Ford fuel injection statement in my previous post as a prime example.

On reliability and quality? In small cars, definitely. The domestic small cars of that era were something that the big three didn't WANT to make. They made less money on them, and so they put very little effort into their manufacture. They wanted to make trucks and land barges, vehicles that were generally actually quite good (with the odd exception of course). But the Japanese made a better small car. By a relatively wide margin. Better in reliability being the main thing if we ignore the bodies rusting off of them.

It was these better small cars that allowed the Japanese to garner a following in the North American market, which then paved the way for their advancement and the rest is history.

In parallel, the reputations regarding the German marques developed, particularly Mercedes and BMW. Through their (often quirky as they aged) innovations and attention to detail, they essentially defined the luxury (and luxury performance) sedan segment. A market the Japanese then later got into.

A very interesting period in time.


Originally Posted By: asand1
Again, it's not China's fault that we are lazy.


It isn't just the lazy, it is the fact that we want everything as inexpensive as possible and are willing to trade the cheapening of a product for that lower price. Then we moan and complain about it but continue to speak with our wallets supporting it

On top of that, we have corporations that off-shore production to bolster their bottom line, often with inadequate QC in place and the result is an inferior product that doesn't get reduced in price, just quality. A good example of that are aftermarket intake manifolds by companies like Weiand. The old castings, made in the USA, are significantly better quality and with better finish than the new ones now cast overseas. Do you think they lowered the price to reflect the lowered cost of manufacture and obvious lower quality? Of course not, they are just riding on their name and padding the bottom-line.

I refer to this (as do others) as the "Walmartization" of society. You'll buy the same cheap trinket several times because it keeps breaking, complain about it, yet still continue to buy it, because it is inexpensive. The problem is it is also cheap and being inexpensive doesn't make something a good value, however, we seem to have lost touch with the idea as to what "value" actually is.

A Michelin tire, like the LTX M/S2, can be a good VALUE, even though they are more money. This is due to their wear characteristics and ability to perform well in basically any condition you are likely to encounter. So despite not being inexpensive, they are a bargain.

On the flip side of that, some of the OEM-spec tires produced by companies like Michelin are a poor value due to their design characteristics. They are usually still quite expensive and can be out-performed by tires lower in price, often by the same manufacturer. This is what makes forums like this one invaluable, as we can exchange experiences with a product and aide in determining what is the best value for our money

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: asand1
We won't manufacture anything because of the greenies, but we'll let 3rd world countries do it for us? The financial state of our country is our own doing thanks to the liberal mindedness of the populace.

Its not China's fault that we've contracted out for them to do our dirty work.


The world would breathe a little better if we exported our environmental standards and made the chinese adhere to ones from, say, 30 years ago. 1985, we had the Clean Air Act, Clean Water act, and environmental remediation business was starting to be "a thing".

They watch "Baywatch", let's stir the pot a little and Westernize them a little? Level the playing field, but bring them *up*, and have our US-based engineering firms share a little expertise on cleaning groundwater, etc.

Let's remember that the textile mills in Lowell, MA were built by a machinist who memorized English blueprints in his head and stole *their* intellectual property.

The English were content to take raw material from the Colonies home and add value there. Well, shoot!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Quote.
By the way when it comes to unions. There is a reason why german companies did not need bailout. It is called sense of ownership by average worker that works there who has more interest in building quality product then the one that is not unionized.
Only people in the U.S. who are receiving meaningful welfare are Banks etc.
But, to your joy, we do have a lot right to work states, and we know how that works for them. I spent 7 years in one of those states, and half of State still does not have decent sewage system, windows on public schools are luxury, and have infant mortality rate worse then Libya.
Unless we figure out that education is public good, not private good, yes you should be worried about other countries overtaking the U.S.
In the end, Jaguar and Volvo are in Chinese hands, and?


Quote:
I don't remember German union auto workers smoking weed on their lunch break.

As far as education goes....Education is not only a 'right' but it's also a 'responsibility'. The government is required to provide education but the student (and his/her family) have a responsibility to learn. It's tiring to keep hearing how the system is failing the kids....some of the kids are failing the system.

Well let's go like this, since I have seen for a long time how workers in Germany live (not only in Auto industry):
- 5 weeks of paid vacation.
- Full health care
- Free education (extremely strong vocational education, where they are getting their skilled work force).
- On a lunches it is more common then not to see workers having a beer.
- I heard Germans smoke weed too.
- Famous case of Wal Mart where company tried to push company policy of no flirting at work. After two employees got fired bcs of relationship at work, Wal Mart had to close the shop in Germany.

European unemployment rate is higher then in the U.S. However, average worker in Germany and many other countries has much better benefits then worker in the U.S. with higher wages. Those that are unemployed do not have to worry about medical bills and student loans, and guess what? They still have metal industry that did not need bailout.
My mother in law that works in Wal Mart in Nevada (Vegas) got a notice that she cannot take any sick days otherwise she will be dropped to part-time and with that loose health care.
Education? What responsibility when you have in Alabama public schools where there are no windows and doors, and then even if they finish high school, the cost of education sky rocketed so much that they will be paying students loans for 30 years or more. I am wondering how they will buy GM truck etc. if their paycheck goes to student loans, medical bills etc.

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: asand1
Every one acts like China has NEVER made a good product. I like my Wanlis, Sensens, Koyorad, Chinese knock sensor and Chinese wheel bearing. Am I forgetting anything?

China is a country, not a company. I would give the Chinese Pirelli a chance. If you find it to be [censored], don't buy it again. Just don't blindly lump all Chinese products together without giving them a chance.


Some of us don't like being unemployed. What goes around comes around.

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't think we will win this unless we become more concerned and pro active.


I agree. Especially when so many even on here will straight up say that they don't care about their buying choices.

Problem with that is quality. I am done with GY. Last two Eagle's I had I could not balance them after 5K. They were made in the U.S. but seriously?


That's what you get for buying low profile tires!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't think we will win this unless we become more concerned and pro active.


I agree. Especially when so many even on here will straight up say that they don't care about their buying choices.

Problem with that is quality. I am done with GY. Last two Eagle's I had I could not balance them after 5K. They were made in the U.S. but seriously?


That's what you get for buying low profile tires!

Seriously? Two things:
1. What kind of recommendation would you have for a car where highest profile of tire is 45, while others are 40 and 35?
2. Why I am not having that problem with Michelin and Bridgestone?

What is GY then? Best as long as you do not buy low profile? cccccccc