WWII

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Despite it all the Japanese brought to themselves another encounter with "friendly Mr. Atom" not that long ago.


"Engineering arrogance" got them just like Chernobyl and 3-Mile Island. Not all Japanese are engineers, and apparantly not all their engineers think of everything.

But I imagine when you have a lot of people on a small series of islands with few natural resources, you want to engineer your way out of your energy problems.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


Hopefully no one as the loss of civilian life was disgusting. The military and world had a success in shock and awe beyond seeing what a weapon could do.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: andyd

I think the Emperor should have been tried for war crimes and hung. Hirohito was isolated from power by the militarists who controlled the armed forces. He had no say in how they conducted the war.The Japanese Army's senior staff was often disobeyed by junior officers who out- Bushido-ed them with their brutality. Those guys were hung.
Kill the Pope and see how much cooperation you get. MacArthur was a megalomaniac, but he cannily overlaid a traditional society's ways with little touches of democracy. There was a fairly orderly transition between civil and military government. As for the bombs,Plan B was an invasion.


The occupation and rebuilding of Japan and Germany after the war was a great success story and is a very good example of how to reshape societies after the conclusion of total war.

We learned the lesson from WW1, where Germany was in fact totally beaten but the civilian population didn't feel they were and their society was left largely intact with a democratic style of government forced down their throats.

Sadly it was promptly forgotten after Korea again.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


The Chinese are still angry at the Japanese and rightfully so, the Japanese government has never fully come to terms with their brutal occupation of that country.

Invading is one thing, but the brutal mistreatment and slaughter of civilians was totally unnecessary.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


The Chinese are still angry at the Japanese and rightfully so, the Japanese government has never fully come to terms with their brutal occupation of that country.

Invading is one thing, but the brutal mistreatment and slaughter of civilians was totally unnecessary.


Well, the Chinese should look in the mirror. Since the ending of WW2, the Chinese have done a series of things that they shouldn't be too proud of. China is huge...yet they still have desires and ambitions of conquest. Look at the Sino-India conflict. What about China and Tibet? Taiwan? How about the atrocities the civil war the Chinese Communists committed against their own people, the Chinese Nationalists (who were our great allies in WW2)?

Anybody remember the Korean War?

No...the Chinese certainly didn't deserve what the Japanese imperialists did to them...but certainly China has NOT been a force for good in the world ever since. Quite the opposite.
On the other hand, considering what we did to end the war....the Japanese have been great friends and partners of the U.S. and the free world. They paid dearly for what the war mongering Japanese leaders did starting in the 1930's up until we dropped the bomb and fried thousands with radiation. We killed many thousands more civilians with the previous firebombing however.

Sad really.....very sad.

 

[Mystic]

The United States had no choice about dropping the two nuclear bombs. If the bombs would not have been dropped there would have been an invasion of Japan by the Allied forces and it was estimated that there would have been at least one million allied causalities if that had taken place, to say nothing of how many millions of Japanese would have died. And then the USA would have been condemned for NOT using the nuclear bombs to end the war. In addition the Soviet Union entered the war against Japan after the defeat of Nazi Germany and the Soviets would have probably conquered large areas of Asia.

The one thing I wish is that there would have been some way to use the nuclear bombs against strictly military targets, and not cities. But Japan is a small country and the military bases tended to be near the cities. Or if there had been some way to demonstrate the power of the nuclear bombs to Japanese leaders without bombing cities.

But the bottom line is: If the nuclear bombs had not been used and there would have been an invasion of Japan, millions of people would have died. A lot more than in the two cities that were bombed with nuclear bombs.

But regardless the USA will be condemned for all history despite these facts.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: andrewg


Well, the Chinese should look in the mirror. Since the ending of WW2, the Chinese have done a series of things that they shouldn't be too proud of.

Just what I was thinking...lol.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
The United States had no choice about dropping the two nuclear bombs. If the bombs would not have been dropped there would have been an invasion of Japan by the Allied forces and it was estimated that there would have been at least one million allied causalities if that had taken place, to say nothing of how many millions of Japanese would have died. And then the USA would have been condemned for NOT using the nuclear bombs to end the war. In addition the Soviet Union entered the war against Japan after the defeat of Nazi Germany and the Soviets would have probably conquered large areas of Asia.

The one thing I wish is that there would have been some way to use the nuclear bombs against strictly military targets, and not cities. But Japan is a small country and the military bases tended to be near the cities. Or if there had been some way to demonstrate the power of the nuclear bombs to Japanese leaders without bombing cities.

But the bottom line is: If the nuclear bombs had not been used and there would have been an invasion of Japan, millions of people would have died. A lot more than in the two cities that were bombed with nuclear bombs.

But regardless the USA will be condemned for all history despite these facts.


I think we had other choices. Those choices were not in accordance with the U.S. interests at the time. First and foremost was the total defeat of Japan. Secondly was to show the Soviets, and any other potential enemy....of our might and superiority. If we didn't use the bomb, we would have looked weak and lacking the will to be decisive.
As for other choices? We could have simply chosen an island of relative uninhabited population near Japan. That would have been a demonstration without the terrible loss of civilian life and radiation fallout would have been minimized.
We also could have blockaded Japan. It MAY have worked after some time...but really not the best choice....and starvation would have resulted if the emperor would not have surrendered fairly soon.
I also think that near the end of the war, the Japanese opposition to the war had grown to the point of a possible coud'e-tat. We could have supported that and possibly had negotiations with that group.

I think the U.S. DID have choices....just not expedient ones that validated the millions spent on the bomb as well as it's use as a demonstration of our might.

Nobody knows what would have happened if a land invasion had occured. Probably more casualties than those bombs. But maybe not as many against civilians....who knows.

Insight gives us a luxury to discuss the subject though. Still, it WAS a terrible thing to do to mostly civilians. I don't care what anybody says. Same thing with the mass fire bombings in Germany. Just horrific to do that to primarily innocent people.

Necessary? I don't know. It worked...but what a price.

 

[Mystic]

Remember that bombs and missiles are much more accurate today then in WWII. And Germany fire bombed British cities also, like London. But I agree that there should not be attacks on civilians. Just remember it is easier to say that today then in WWII because we have bombs and missiles with incredible accuracy today. During WWII they were lucky if the bombs hit the steel mill they were supposed to hit and not the surrounding civilian areas.

The Japanese worshipped the Japanese emperor. And they were prepared to fight to the death to defend Japan. An invasion of Japan would have been horrific. Without question millions would have died.

I do wish there could have been a demonstration of the power of nuclear bombs without dropping them on cities. But it was total war and I don't even know if that would have been possible. And Japan is a small country and it is kind of hard to use a nuclear bomb only on a military target. The USA actually did give the Japanese warning before using the nuclear bombs, without going into detail about what kind of weapons they had. The Japanese ignored the warning.

Having said all of this, I remember seeing on TV a video of Pearl Harbor and they showed the Memorial that was built over the wreckage of the Battleship USS Arizona. And on shore facing the memorial were several men and women from Japan and they bowed as a group towards the wreckage of the battleship.

Somehow that scene stays in my memory.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


Hopefully no one as the loss of civilian life was disgusting. The military and world had a success in shock and awe beyond seeing what a weapon could do.

Tell that to the people of Shanghai, people of Philippine ... millions died under occupation of Imperialist Japan in late 30' early 40's.

Yes, loss of civilian life of any race/country is sad but people of China and Southeast Asia wanted an eye for an eye, and I don't blame them.

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Yes, loss of civilian life of any race/country is sad but people of China and Southeast Asia wanted an eye for an eye, and I don't blame them.


Revenge is human nature.

But the person who ultimately suffers is the person who takes or glories in revenge, for they become more like the evil they abhorred.

Nelson Mandela on why he did not take revenge:

'You know, they already took everything. They took the best years of my life; I didn't get to see my children grow up. They destroyed my marriage. They abused me physically and mentally. They could take everything except my mind and heart. Those things I would have to give away and I decided not to give them away.'

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I think we had other choices. Those choices were not in accordance with the U.S. interests at the time. First and foremost was the total defeat of Japan. Secondly was to show the Soviets, and any other potential enemy....of our might and superiority. If we didn't use the bomb, we would have looked weak and lacking the will to be decisive.
As for other choices? We could have simply chosen an island of relative uninhabited population near Japan. That would have been a demonstration without the terrible loss of civilian life and radiation fallout would have been minimized.
We also could have blockaded Japan. It MAY have worked after some time...but really not the best choice....and starvation would have resulted if the emperor would not have surrendered fairly soon.
I also think that near the end of the war, the Japanese opposition to the war had grown to the point of a possible coud'e-tat. We could have supported that and possibly had negotiations with that group.

I think the U.S. DID have choices....just not expedient ones that validated the millions spent on the bomb as well as it's use as a demonstration of our might.

Nobody knows what would have happened if a land invasion had occured. Probably more casualties than those bombs. But maybe not as many against civilians....who knows.

Insight gives us a luxury to discuss the subject though. Still, it WAS a terrible thing to do to mostly civilians. I don't care what anybody says. Same thing with the mass fire bombings in Germany. Just horrific to do that to primarily innocent people.

Necessary? I don't know. It worked...but what a price.


I think you are onto something. It's good to re-evaluate what is commonly believed. A little bit of research suggests that the 1 million men would have died claim should not be accepted so readily.

And of course there were military targets and less densely populated areas where a demonstration could have taken place. Japan being a small country doesn't mean it's packed like sardines!

I haven't done the exhaustive research on this that I've done in the past when I studied other topics in history, but the opinion that seems to make most sense was that America was worried about Russia. America needed to occupy Japan in order to stop Russia or even China from having influence there. The nuclear option ensured that America would be able to occupy Japan. And it gave a clear signal to Russia and China that America was willing to use the bomb.

 

[Mystic]

Just to show how inaccurate bombing was in WWII:

After WWII the USA used the Battleship Nevada in atomic bomb testing in the Pacific (along with other ships). They painted the battleship a bright orange color and tried to drop an atomic bomb on it. They missed by some incredible distance. I think it was something like 1000 yards. And remember, these were top of the line pilots and flight crews in these bombers.

There were very good reasons why the US Navy in WWII used dive bombers and torpedo planes to try to sink ships. High level bombers usually missed and guided missiles and guided bombs were not being developed until near the end of the war. The US Navy was actually pretty good with dive bombing. And occasionally a torpedo would hit a ship, especially if you dropped enough torpedoes.

In the sinking of the Battleship IJN Yamato, and the escort ships for that battleship, apparently over 100 torpedoes were dropped from torpedo bombers. Not to mention all of the dive bombs and the fighter planes shooting their weapons.The Yamato was hit by apparently 10 torpedoes and escort ships were hit with some so the accuracy was not exactly stellar.

If the USA had tried to show the power of nuclear bombs to the Japanese and get the Japanese to surrender after seeing that show of power, a Japanese city might have been destroyed anyway. Imagine if the Yamato would have still been afloat at that point in the war and an American bomber tried to destroy that battleship with a nuclear bomb. They might have missed the battleship by 1000 yards and hit a nearby city anyway. And even if they had not missed the city still would have experienced major damage.

We can't judge people in the past using the technology of today.

 

[javacontour]

I had read this before as well. They wanted to guage the damage done by choosing targets without significant damage.

Originally Posted By: umungus1122
I've read the selection was based on the requirement for a relatively large city, that had not been previously attacked, or at least heavily attacked, to gage the weapon's effect more accurately.

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If the USA had tried to show the power of nuclear bombs to the Japanese and get the Japanese to surrender after seeing that show of power, a Japanese city might have been destroyed anyway. Imagine if the Yamato would have still been afloat at that point in the war and an American bomber tried to destroy that battleship with a nuclear bomb. They might have missed the battleship by 1000 yards and hit a nearby city anyway. And even if they had not missed the city still would have experienced major damage.


Glad you brought that up. I hadn't considered that at all.

 

[javacontour]

The US military leadership evaluation of what it took to date Island hopping as close to Japan as they had. Truman was convinced more lives, both Japanese and US military and civilian would be saved if the Japanese surrendered after the use of the bomb.

The death toll from a full scale invasion of Japan was expected to be in the millions, for both sides.

Kinda hard to argue against "only" killing tens of thousands instead of millions to bring the war to an end.

Originally Posted By: Evanson
I've always wondered what the reasoning behind dropping the second bomb was. Was it so the Japanese understood there was more than one?

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Evanson
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Yes, loss of civilian life of any race/country is sad but people of China and Southeast Asia wanted an eye for an eye, and I don't blame them.


Revenge is human nature.

But the person who ultimately suffers is the person who takes or glories in revenge, for they become more like the evil they abhorred.

Nelson Mandela on why he did not take revenge:

'You know, they already took everything. They took the best years of my life; I didn't get to see my children grow up. They destroyed my marriage. They abused me physically and mentally. They could take everything except my mind and heart. Those things I would have to give away and I decided not to give them away.'
What about the necklacing Winnie Mandella did?? Nelson destroyed S.Africa.

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: CT8
What about the necklacing Winnie Mandella did??


That's why he separated from her. He controlled his urge for revenge. She didn't.

Originally Posted By: CT8
Nelson destroyed S.Africa


How did you come to that conclusion? I've known many (white) South Africans and they say he saved the country. The country was on the brink of a civil war.

 

[Al]

We were running out of money. And Japan would have fought to the death. A demo bomb wouldn't have convinced themof anything. And we only had 2. And the plotinium bomb could have failed. It was complex. The uranium bomb wasn't tested. Invasion would have cost at least 1/4 million Allied troops....no thank you
Good Summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

 

[dja4260]

Both bombs exhausted our supply of materials for nuclear weapons. Good thing they surrendered.