Kreen Experience (piston soak + crankcase + gas)

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Originally Posted By: ciac


Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Going up hill, are you hearing a knock, or pinging under load?

I think it's like a pinging noise when it's under load. However, with MAF sensor cleaned, that noise went away under load. I think I might here it sometimes, but not nearly as bad as before.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Something to keep in mind as far as the sounds you're hearing after the Kreen and other cleanings you did. Did you use the same brand/grade of oil, and the same brand/model filter? If not your situation might caused by using different products and have nothing to do with the cleaning of the engine. Final thoughts: Kreen continues to clean after you change the oil. At least that has been my experience with the product.

Piston slap won't be fixed with any cleaners, flushes, or additives.


Yes I understand. I can't be sure if Kreen did anything to the noise because I have never put mobil 1 in this car, so there's no reference for comparison. Filter wasn't the same either (got a bosch almost free with coupon before changing to purolator classic now). So I guess the only thing I can do to see if Kreen did anything is by checking if the oil burning problem is reduced in any way.

Kreen keeps cleaning after oil change? Is it with the residual kreen in the crankcase? I noticed that the oil burned quite a bit faster, dropping to half way on the dipstick within the 1200 miles I drove with Kreen. I assume it either was thinner and thus got past the rings more readily to be burned, or that it simply evaporated. It'd surprise me a little that there's still cleaning effect after flushing, but all the better!

The thing is: why didn't I get a really black and sooty drain? The oil was pretty clear even with the pretty high dose of kreen+pistonsoak. Does it mean it didn't work all that well, or the engine is actually pretty clean (i doubt it unless MMO really did wonders).

Thanks guys.


Pinging under load is different from an engine knock. I have two owners manuals for older vehicles which state light pinging under load is normal.

I found in my test mule Kreen kept cleaning after the oil was changed. I don't think it was the residual Kreen, I think it was just more junk that was softened up coming out.

As far as why the oil didn't come out sooty black. It depends, sometimes it comes out deep brown, sometimes it comes out the same as it always does. Maybe you had nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe the MMO did the cleaning. Maybe you had nothing to clean. My point is some people never establish their engine is dirty, and clean it. You can't clean something that's not dirty. Others use different products and have no idea which product to credit with the success or failure to clean, or for different sounds coming from the engine. Others are quick to point fingers of blame just to stir the pot. I try and ignore them.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: ciac


Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Going up hill, are you hearing a knock, or pinging under load?

I think it's like a pinging noise when it's under load. However, with MAF sensor cleaned, that noise went away under load. I think I might here it sometimes, but not nearly as bad as before.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Something to keep in mind as far as the sounds you're hearing after the Kreen and other cleanings you did. Did you use the same brand/grade of oil, and the same brand/model filter? If not your situation might caused by using different products and have nothing to do with the cleaning of the engine. Final thoughts: Kreen continues to clean after you change the oil. At least that has been my experience with the product.

Piston slap won't be fixed with any cleaners, flushes, or additives.


Yes I understand. I can't be sure if Kreen did anything to the noise because I have never put mobil 1 in this car, so there's no reference for comparison. Filter wasn't the same either (got a bosch almost free with coupon before changing to purolator classic now). So I guess the only thing I can do to see if Kreen did anything is by checking if the oil burning problem is reduced in any way.

Kreen keeps cleaning after oil change? Is it with the residual kreen in the crankcase? I noticed that the oil burned quite a bit faster, dropping to half way on the dipstick within the 1200 miles I drove with Kreen. I assume it either was thinner and thus got past the rings more readily to be burned, or that it simply evaporated. It'd surprise me a little that there's still cleaning effect after flushing, but all the better!

The thing is: why didn't I get a really black and sooty drain? The oil was pretty clear even with the pretty high dose of kreen+pistonsoak. Does it mean it didn't work all that well, or the engine is actually pretty clean (i doubt it unless MMO really did wonders).

Thanks guys.


Pinging under load is different from an engine knock. I have two owners manuals for older vehicles which state light pinging under load is normal.

I found in my test mule Kreen kept cleaning after the oil was changed. I don't think it was the residual Kreen, I think it was just more junk that was softened up coming out.

As far as why the oil didn't come out sooty black. It depends, sometimes it comes out deep brown, sometimes it comes out the same as it always does. Maybe you had nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe the MMO did the cleaning. Maybe you had nothing to clean. My point is some people never establish their engine is dirty, and clean it. You can't clean something that's not dirty. Others use different products and have no idea which product to credit with the success or failure to clean, or for different sounds coming from the engine. Others are quick to point fingers of blame just to stir the pot. I try and ignore them.


I have a lot of respect for Trav, who is a professional mechanic and knows what he is talking about. In fact, he impresses me in a lot of other areas in addition to auto mechanics. And demarpaint has something like 40 years of experience using MMO. Trav has successfully used Kreen to clean engines.

I have a lot more respect for these two guys, and I would be more willing to listen to them, than somebody who shows up and takes shots at certain people and certain products whenever he has the chance and likes to disrupt this website. We have no idea whatsoever what that individual's qualifications are when it comes to auto mechanics.

It is fairly easy to spot the people who just like to attack other people and certain products. They will show up time and again with the same old lines.

Anybody can hide behind a computer keyboard and pretend to know something. I know of a guy who seems to think he is the next Dr. Einstein and he has no common sense whatsoever. He got under a car supported only by the jack intended for changing tires (the car almost fell on him) and he let other people drive his car and one of them burned up the clutch plate in his car.

The bottom line is the car is old and if the owner can just get some more years of use out of it the owner will get his money out of the car for sure. If the car uses a little oil just add oil whenever necessary. Expensive mechanical repairs for such an older car may not make economic sense. And without seeing the interior of the engine we have no idea how dirty the engine may have been inside.

Maybe do some research on this car and see if this particular model has a history of engine pinging if some component needs to be replaced or cleaned. May sure the PCV system is working well and clean.
 
It might be worthwhile, if the owner wants to keep the car for a while, to have a mechanic run a diagnostic test and see if there might be a problem with some pollution control component. Back when this car was produced the air pollution control equipment were not as advanced. It might be something simple like a part just needing to be replaced.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Mori he doesn't even know if it has piston slap. Try sticking to your razors, photography and cooking. LOL

Fact is if it were deposits on the piston skirts taking up clearance between the skirt and the wall just regular oil changes could have also removed them without any sort of cleaner. You cant fix broke.

Quote:
thanks for the replies.

Just want to make sure what the "piston slap" is: it's a knock-like noise when idle at low speeds (around 650-750rpm). Almost sound faintly like a diesel engine. At higher RPM it isn't audible.

Then there's the knocking when accelerating or going uphill. This was fixed apparently by cleaning the MAF sensor.

The "piston slap" got "worse" in the sense that it doesn't go away when the car is warm,


That was similar to my theory as well.

In terms of piston slap, a deposit initially builds up on the piston skirts and reduces clearance between skirts and cylinder walls, thus reducing movement and piston slap.

Any cleaner may reduce or eliminate this skirt deposit, after which, the clearance is increased and allows greater movement leading to "slap."

Worn wrist pins could also lead to increasde "slap" as well.
 
Kreen by the very nature of the product is used in a ton of "hopeless" cases. This is regularly used to discredit it.

We have used kreen in a ton of higher mileage cars and had almost perfect results. It is a great cleaner. As many pointed out it cannot effect repairs! But it can really help in some cases...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Kreen by the very nature of the product is used in a ton of "hopeless" cases. This is regularly used to discredit it.

We have used kreen in a ton of higher mileage cars and had almost perfect results. It is a great cleaner. As many pointed out it cannot effect repairs! But it can really help in some cases...




SteveSRT8 and Clevy are two additional well known members of this website who are reputable and have gotten good results using either MMO or Kreen. Now obviously MMO and Kreen are not some sort of magic products and these products will not work in all cases. But both products have been successfully used to clean dirty engines.

I recommend that new members listen to what these well known members have to say and be careful when it comes to certain unknown guys who show up at this website and seem to have some kind of agenda.

It is unfortunate that there is an individual who has some kind of issues who keeps coming back again and again to this website with different user names and seems to want to attack certain individuals here or certain products here. And sometimes when a product like Kreen is being discussed brand new guys will mysteriously appear and attack guys here who use Kreen (or MMO) or the products. And then sometimes these brand new guys will simply disappear. I have seen this time and again at this website.

If somebody with an agenda shows up and suddenly three mysterious brand new guys show up to provide support for the guy with the agenda, that is a little odd.
 
eh, can't help but wonder: am I the one being referred to as the "new guy" who "attacks" these products? Hopefully not. I'm merely reporting what has been done and I can't really state whether if this product worked or not, much less judging it. I hope it works, and mostly based on the many postings about Kreen I've read here by Trav et. al. whom I don't know personally (or even that they are seasoned mechanics). I'm only trying to get more life out of the car, or as a preventative maintenance against its failure. My lack of experience is evident, and hope to benefit from the opinions of those in the know. I certainly do not intend to discredit anyone or any product. Just want to make that clear.

I also hope that the "slap" is from the cleaned deposits or even the wrist pins getting cleared up and started moving around. I didn't feel any increase in power though, and the acceleration remained anemic--but there's a long list of other possible causes. I'm only about 300 miles in after oil change, so I'll wait a bit and see if there's any improvement in oil burning. Maybe it is a lost cause, but one can always hope.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Kreen by the very nature of the product is used in a ton of "hopeless" cases. This is regularly used to discredit it.

We have used kreen in a ton of higher mileage cars and had almost perfect results. It is a great cleaner. As many pointed out it cannot effect repairs! But it can really help in some cases...




SteveSRT8 and Clevy are two additional well known members of this website who are reputable and have gotten good results using either MMO or Kreen. Now obviously MMO and Kreen are not some sort of magic products and these products will not work in all cases. But both products have been successfully used to clean dirty engines.

I recommend that new members listen to what these well known members have to say and be careful when it comes to certain unknown guys who show up at this website and seem to have some kind of agenda.

It is unfortunate that there is an individual who has some kind of issues who keeps coming back again and again to this website with different user names and seems to want to attack certain individuals here or certain products here. And sometimes when a product like Kreen is being discussed brand new guys will mysteriously appear and attack guys here who use Kreen (or MMO) or the products. And then sometimes these brand new guys will simply disappear. I have seen this time and again at this website.

If somebody with an agenda shows up and suddenly three mysterious brand new guys show up to provide support for the guy with the agenda, that is a little odd.
 
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I started using MMO when I got this car which was barely drivable a few years ago, based on the stuff I read here. Incredible as it was to me (who didn't really believe in additives), I did my first oil change doing the 1/5 in crankcase formula. It DID change the way this engine behaved in fairly dramatic ways. While I couldn't explain what happened, or whether if it's really MMO that did it, I kept on using it in the gas and crankcase, until I switched to synthetic, after reading a bit more about the oil burning issue, and how convential oil may exascerbate the problem.

Also it's interesting how the Valvoline High Mileage syn blend used right before kreen came out REALLY black. It's jet black and watery (engine was hot). Maybe that did some cleaning as well? Not sure. Maybe the engine is really cleaned after MMO, synthetics, and valvoline.

I'm also thinking if I should consider a slightly heavier grade (5w-40 as opposed to original 5w-30) HDEO like Rotella T6 to eliminate piston slap or "fill the gaps" so to speak, and keep the strong cleaning going. Possibly even eliminate some oil pass-through with the heavier weight? Just some theoretical ideas, not sure if it even makes sense.

Really appreciate the reponses.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Pinging under load is different from an engine knock. I have two owners manuals for older vehicles which state light pinging under load is normal.

I found in my test mule Kreen kept cleaning after the oil was changed. I don't think it was the residual Kreen, I think it was just more junk that was softened up coming out.

As far as why the oil didn't come out sooty black. It depends, sometimes it comes out deep brown, sometimes it comes out the same as it always does. Maybe you had nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe the MMO did the cleaning. Maybe you had nothing to clean. My point is some people never establish their engine is dirty, and clean it. You can't clean something that's not dirty. Others use different products and have no idea which product to credit with the success or failure to clean, or for different sounds coming from the engine. Others are quick to point fingers of blame just to stir the pot. I try and ignore them.
 
No, I am not referring to you. We have an individual who keeps coming back to this website with different user names. He will attack certain people and certain products.

Fairly recently he got into an argument with some people here and suddenly three brand new guys appeared to back him up. One of those new guys has already disappeared. This guy using proxy servers can get new user names anytime he wants.

A new guy I really liked was driven away from this website. Not because of this particular guy but another guy who likes to start trouble. So I am going to keep warning people about him, especially new guys at the website. That way you will be ready and aware of what is going on.
 
Originally Posted By: ciac
I started using MMO when I got this car which was barely drivable a few years ago, based on the stuff I read here. Incredible as it was to me (who didn't really believe in additives), I did my first oil change doing the 1/5 in crankcase formula. It DID change the way this engine behaved in fairly dramatic ways. While I couldn't explain what happened, or whether if it's really MMO that did it, I kept on using it in the gas and crankcase, until I switched to synthetic, after reading a bit more about the oil burning issue, and how convential oil may exascerbate the problem.

Also it's interesting how the Valvoline High Mileage syn blend used right before kreen came out REALLY black. It's jet black and watery (engine was hot). Maybe that did some cleaning as well? Not sure. Maybe the engine is really cleaned after MMO, synthetics, and valvoline.

I'm also thinking if I should consider a slightly heavier grade (5w-40 as opposed to original 5w-30) HDEO like Rotella T6 to eliminate piston slap or "fill the gaps" so to speak, and keep the strong cleaning going. Possibly even eliminate some oil pass-through with the heavier weight? Just some theoretical ideas, not sure if it even makes sense.

Really appreciate the reponses.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Pinging under load is different from an engine knock. I have two owners manuals for older vehicles which state light pinging under load is normal.

I found in my test mule Kreen kept cleaning after the oil was changed. I don't think it was the residual Kreen, I think it was just more junk that was softened up coming out.

As far as why the oil didn't come out sooty black. It depends, sometimes it comes out deep brown, sometimes it comes out the same as it always does. Maybe you had nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe the MMO did the cleaning. Maybe you had nothing to clean. My point is some people never establish their engine is dirty, and clean it. You can't clean something that's not dirty. Others use different products and have no idea which product to credit with the success or failure to clean, or for different sounds coming from the engine. Others are quick to point fingers of blame just to stir the pot. I try and ignore them.


Since you used more than one product for cleaning, it is very hard to say what product did what. I would say you did some cleaning, and leave it at that. I would try no additives now and run Mobil 1 0W40. It's a synthetic oil which is easy to find, and very often on sale as part of an oil change special. Or just grab a 5qt. jug at Walmart, its cheap enough.

IMO and the opinion of others it is one of the best products Mobil makes. Good cold flow, good cleaning, and a bit 'thicker' than a 5W30. It would be my first choice for your application.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
No, I am not referring to you. We have an individual who keeps coming back to this website with different user names. He will attack certain people and certain products...So I am going to keep warning people about him, especially new guys at the website. That way you will be ready and aware of what is going on.


Good to know. Thanks for the heads-up. From the quote in one of the responses it seems that there were responses that were removed. Maybe that's what you were probably referring to.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Since you used more than one product for cleaning, it is very hard to say what product did what. I would say you did some cleaning, and leave it at that. I would try no additives now and run Mobil 1 0W40. It's a synthetic oil which is easy to find, and very often on sale as part of an oil change special. Or just grab a 5qt. jug at Walmart, its cheap enough.

IMO and the opinion of others it is one of the best products Mobil makes. Good cold flow, good cleaning, and a bit 'thicker' than a 5W30. It would be my first choice for your application.


Is 0w40 a group 4 oil? I remember reading about how Mobil 1 had been group IV but became group III after the castrol lawsuit. Now I'm not even sure if Mobil 1 is worth the premium because of that. However I did read a lot about how well it cleans on here. Just wondering why the 0w. Also does High Mileage version clean better other than the supposed seal-swelling additives?

Finally, the 40 weight as opposed to the original 30--does it follow the logic that older engine with loose tolerances can use thicker oil for better protection, assuming high rev is almost never happening for regular driving? What advantages are there to use a heavier weight? Or caveats?

Was thinking of using Walmart ST synthetic the next change (to keep the running cost down), but now gonna get a bottle of mobil 1 0w40 since there's a $12 rebate going on. Thanks for the suggestion. Hear a lot of recommendations on Pennzoil Platinum here. Can that be a good option if it goes on sale? Thanks.
 
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I'm just tossing that out there. I can't say if its a group III or IV, or whatever with any degree of certainty. All I know is the product is great. Mobil 1 0W40 is regarded as their best or one of their best oils depends on who you ask. You wanted to try something a little 'thicker' in hopes of improving the piston slap, so why not? Their 0W40 has some great cold flow properties, and cleans well. That was the logic behind the recommendation.

If you decide to go that route, let us know how it turns out.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Fact is if it were deposits on the piston skirts taking up clearance between the skirt and the wall just regular oil changes could have also removed them without any sort of cleaner.


So you are saying that the additives were likely not necessary.


Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In terms of piston slap, a deposit initially builds up on the piston skirts and reduces clearance between skirts and cylinder walls, thus reducing movement and piston slap.

Any cleaner may reduce or eliminate this skirt deposit, after which, the clearance is increased and allows greater movement leading to "slap."


And this concurs with and potentially explains the OP's statement that the noise he observed increased after using the additives.
 
Originally Posted By: ciac
eh, can't help but wonder: am I the one being referred to as the "new guy" who "attacks" these products? Hopefully not. I'm merely reporting what has been done and I can't really state whether if this product worked or not, much less judging it. I hope it works, and mostly based on the many postings about Kreen I've read here by Trav et. al. whom I don't know personally (or even that they are seasoned mechanics). I'm only trying to get more life out of the car, or as a preventative maintenance against its failure. My lack of experience is evident, and hope to benefit from the opinions of those in the know. I certainly do not intend to discredit anyone or any product. Just want to make that clear.



Hi ciac, Welcome to BITOG
welcome2.gif
and I hope your regime works out.

I would use the highest viscosity oil allowed by your engine maker until and if you decide to have the engine torn down and the root cause identified. Until then, it is a guessing game as to whether it is a worn engine or an engine design flaw.

From time to time (since about 2002) we have oil chemist/tribology WannaBe's and Drama Kings come here under different names with argumentation style and attitudes very similar to previous trouble makers.

They do not come here to learn (the original intent of BITOG) or calmly discuss something , rather they come here to attack people and products under some trumped-up title heading. In addition, the my interpretation of such and such is correct is another telltale sign.

Generally, they have been kicked-off of other web sites because they were so obnoxious.

It is especially telling when they are caught in a misinformation campaign or finally zero in on one person and try to intimidate that person.

So again, good luck with your situation.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mystic


I have a lot of respect for Trav, who is a professional mechanic and knows what he is talking about. In fact, he impresses me in a lot of other areas in addition to auto mechanics. And demarpaint has something like 40 years of experience using MMO. Trav has successfully used Kreen to clean engines.

I have a lot more respect for these two guys, and I would be more willing to listen to them, than somebody who shows up and takes shots at certain people and certain products whenever he has the chance and likes to disrupt this website.



+1!!!
 
Originally Posted By: ciac
Thanks for the replies.

Just want to make sure what the "piston slap" is: it's a knock-like noise when idle at low speeds (around 650-750rpm). Almost sound faintly like a diesel engine. At higher RPM it isn't audible.

Then there's the knocking when accelerating or going uphill. This was fixed apparently by cleaning the MAF sensor.

The "piston slap" got "worse" in the sense that it doesn't go away when the car is warm, and I can hear it all the time when stopping at a light where the sound may bounce from the car next to me. Before it's more on and off. Not sure why cleaning/kreen would do that, but maybe it's just Mobil 1, or maybe it's just the way it is like everyone says here.

With the Castrol Edge and Shell Conventional, the slap wasn't audible until past 3k miles after oil change. It was more obvious when Valvoline HM was put in, in the sense that it quiets very well that the slap became the lone noise that wasn't suppressed completely. Now with Mobil 1 it's unmistakable from day one.

It's true, that the oil burning isn't as bad or unexpected as an old car would be. However, for generation 8 Corolla and 1ZZFE engines, oil burning and knocking noise is precursor to engine failure. There are plenty of examples around the web, and my friends owned two that both suffered engine failure around 100k. Toward the end it was knocking like a broken diesel truck.

The cause of the failure was oil return holes by the oil ring being plugged by burnt oil/carbon deposit, and Kreen is exactly meant to dissolve/clean/remove that. So it seems to make sense to give it a shot.

I wouldn't have bothered with Kreen treatment except it is suggested (Leakyseals on this forum) that it may fix the stuck oil ring problem in these engines. So I thought it'd be worth a try (other than taking apart the engine and replace the rings which will definitely fix it). If it's fixed, I wouldn't have to worry as much about upgrading cars in the near future. I don't drive that much, and it works well around the city where I don't have to worry about it getting banged up with street parking. It's also very fuel efficient.

So far everything seemed okay except the low RPM piston slap. Will continue monitoring the oil consumption to see if that's fixed. Not sure if the "slap" and consumption are related though.



Unfortunately the slap can be caused worn cylinder that will not be fixed (will make it worse) with Kreen cleaning. However, I feel the 3 days Kreen is too fast to register the full effect, even though may be enough if you have MMO before. I would suggest to put less Kreen (150-200 ml) and leave it for full OCI or shorter if the oil getting dark too fast. At the same time put 1-2 treatment of Techron/Berryman. Once it reach OCI, check the slap again, if persists put new oil + MoS2.
I believe that will minimize the noise as much as possible without overhaul.
 
Just to put in my 2 cents...

Maxlife is known to be a really, really good cleaning oil. Many members have reported Maxlife coming out very black, and there being lots of junk in the filter when it is opened up. I don't doubt it did some good cleaning here.
 
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