Engine Design Features That Permit 5w20

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I'm getting a 2015 Mustang GT with the port injected naturally aspirated V8 (435 hp, 400 lb ft torque). Ford spec's 5w20 synthetic for this motor. Coming from BMWs, I'm used to thicker oils (10w60 for na M cars, and 5w30/5w40 for the latest turbo motors). What design features in a high rpm performance engine would allow the use of such a relatively thin viscosity oil as a 5w20?
 
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in my opinion, the "design features" are actually in the oil: modern oils are really good. as far as "design features" of the engine? just a desire to improve CAFE by a fraction of a MPG
 
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
I'm getting a 2015 Mustang GT with the port injected naturally aspirated V8 (435 hp, 400 lb ft torque). Ford spec's 5w20 synthetic for this motor. Coming from BMWs, I'm used to thicker oils (10w60 for na M cars, and 5w30/5w40 for the latest turbo motors). What design features in a high rpm performance engine would allow the use of such a relatively thin viscosity oil as a 5w20?

What is the redline of this High RPM performance engine ? 8000-9000 RPM ?
 
Go back and learn hydrodynamics, the nature of the wedge, and the influence of boundary lubrication. There is a reason why we have EP and AW adds, and why we see a minima in wear on the Stribeck curve when we hit the point between mixed film and hydrodynamic lubrication. Within the engine the fluid velocity transitions into steady flow, any shear-induced thinning occurs, there is local heating, viscosity decreases, etc. Given the bearing size, clearances, pump flow and pressure, and so on, it seems to not be a practical issue for all intents and purposes.

It's valid to consider that oil is dynamic, especially over the OCI and conditions incurred. That's for sure. But IMO that has also been part of the consideration set in engineering and specifying a lubricant to do a job. One of the comments when people were transitioning from 5w-30 to 5w-20 oils was that the 30wt oils often sheared down into a heavy 20, so people HAVE been running lighter oils for a long time and not known it. The intent of that comment was to show that if the 5w-20 oils coming on market are shear-stable, then it is no different than what ran in most sumps for the last 1500+ miles anyway for years and years past.

UOA is no newfangled technique. Engine manufacturers and lubrication engineers know what an oil will look like after a relevant amount of shearing, heating, oxidation, etc. These are all knobs which can be turned (look at older versions of M1 0w-40 which competed shearing with oxidation to maintain a 40wt A3 oil) as part of the lube design. The engine builders know what they need to know - Viscosity, rotational speed and load. From Noria:

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This stuff is easily calculated for designs and across the lifecycle of the engine and lubricant. There is sufficient variability in lube options that the "right one" can be specified or a specification can be written to make it work.

Example: is 10w-60 REALLY necessary for an M engine? Maybe really a 50wt is necessary, but given the characteristics of service interval and available lubricants, the 10w-60 was selected to provide the maximum "time at rated condition" (which is what engineering stuff is really about) to provide "design life at rated condition". That is the end game and goal. To do that, as cheaply as possible, with just enough overdesign to ensure optimal MTBF/MTBO and customer satisfaction without costing too much in NRE, parts, labor, etc.

But again, go back and check your knowledge of the Stribeck Curve. At startup and until that pressure wedge occurs in a journal bearing, you are purely talking boundary lubrication. Once you get bast the boundary phase and the flowing lube can inherently create its own wedge and lift off, youre pretty set with hydrodynamic lubrication. Better manufacturing yields better surface finishes which minimize the need for as much film thickness due to less surface roughness, and then a proper boundary lubricant is necessary prior to liftoff to ensure that the surfaces are protected.

IMO better base stocks with better overall film strength, coupled with the purpose-specific additive on the surface providing the boundary lubrication, allows for a wider range of safe operation versus relying upon the component that inherently makes up the hydrodynamic wedge once lifted off.

I think that for the most part, statistically significant information has suitably indicated a non-issue using the specified lube for the specified interval in ones' engine. That doesnt mean to pack up shop and go home, but it does generally mean that using the recommendation is a fair approach that has been successful, and optimization, if any, is generally done more for sport/hobby than to see practical longevity improvements.
 
Interesting discussion and explanation of curves and such. Can you now explain why the same engines in other countries without the Café Standards spec the same engines with thicker oil?
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Interesting discussion and explanation of curves and such. Can you now explain why the same engines in other countries without the Café Standards spec the same engines with thicker oil?


Nope.
 
There would have to be a lot of polished surfaces and the bearing clearances would have to be real tight in order to maintain oil pressure. No room for misaligned parts at all.
 
I would add that in addition to improved parts finishing, part of it is found in the coatings (Titanium and Diamond Like Coatings or DLC), tighter temperature control, and more accurate fuel delivery and timing.
 
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JHZR2, awesome explanation, but I'd like to correct that minimum wear occurs in full hydrodynamic...no touching, no wear.

The point on the Stribeck where boundary kicks in is minimum friction, not minimum wear...wear is still low.

The OEMs, in their literature, and the GF6 testing protocols have admitted that modern engines are spending more time in boundary and mixed lubrication regimes in the quest for economy.

It doesn't lead to a "pile of failed engines" as some people seek, just engines that don't outlive their chassis by as much as they could, and use a few hundred gallons less fuel doing it.
 
Block/crank rigidity, tighter clearances, surface finish of the crank and oil pump type are all contributing factors.
The answer to why some countries spec thicker oils is simple.
The engine was not designed around xw20. It will run okay on it but on many other viscosities also. The engines are for the most part a "world" engine and will operate just fine on on a large variety of oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Interesting discussion and explanation of curves and such. Can you now explain why the same engines in other countries without the Café Standards spec the same engines with thicker oil?


great question

or a different oil
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I would add that in addition to improved parts finishing, part of it is found in the coatings (Titanium and Diamond Like Coatings or DLC), tighter temperature control, and more accurate fuel delivery and timing.


how would tighter temperature control be achieved, or how is it being achieved?
 
most of this discussion is over my head, but i'll just add in i've noticed that the Mustangs with the "Track Pack" recommend something like an 5w50 for track days, or any time you hit a race course.
 
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I would add that in addition to improved parts finishing, part of it is found in the coatings (Titanium and Diamond Like Coatings or DLC), tighter temperature control, and more accurate fuel delivery and timing.


how would tighter temperature control be achieved, or how is it being achieved?


Ford in Oz advertised a system in the Falcon that would respond to a failed cooling system by limiting power output to a level that would control temperatures to avoid catastrophic failure.

Similar systems in Fords (and others) respond to excessive use of the loud pedal, on xW20 oils to limit the power output to make up for the lubricant's shortcomings.

See JHZR2's great post above, with respect to the Stribeck curve...when temperatures are high, and viscosity low because of it, the only way to move the curve to the safer region, to the right is to limit the loading applied to the bearings.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Block/crank rigidity, tighter clearances, surface finish of the crank and oil pump type are all contributing factors.
The answer to why some countries spec thicker oils is simple.
The engine was not designed around xw20. It will run okay on it but on many other viscosities also. The engines are for the most part a "world" engine and will operate just fine on on a large variety of oils.



This is true, yet some people have a hard time dealing with it in discussions we have here. As a result we hear Strawman arguments, saying things like if the car is driven in the US, yada yada yada.

JHZR2's explanation was good as usual. I was just bringing up a point on how these topics end up when other parts of the world are mentioned.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


This is true, yet some people have a hard time dealing with it in discussions we have here. As a result we hear Strawman arguments, saying things like if the car is driven in the US, yada yada yada.

JHZR2's explanation was good as usual. I was just bringing up a point on how these topics end up when other parts of the world are mentioned.


So "how it ends up", if I've been reading correctly, is that if the oil is spec'd for your engine somewhere else in the world..DONT worry about using it. In fact a QUALITY heavier multi weight spec'd for your engine will likely be even better for you as a U.S. owner (especially high speed high temp driving. Bottom line, U.S. Oil specs are at the practical "edge" of reasonable reccomendation for max engine longevity.

On another tangent, I've come to learn that engineers who are free to design tend to design for longevity, whereas engineers who are 'paid' tend to be straddled and design for reaching a minimum 'lifetime' value of the project. I wish we could have engineers on the public dollar rather than politicians....imagine the real solutions the could come up with.
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


This is true, yet some people have a hard time dealing with it in discussions we have here. As a result we hear Strawman arguments, saying things like if the car is driven in the US, yada yada yada.

JHZR2's explanation was good as usual. I was just bringing up a point on how these topics end up when other parts of the world are mentioned.


So "how it ends up", if I've been reading correctly, is that if the oil is spec'd for your engine somewhere else in the world..DONT worry about using it. In fact a QUALITY heavier multi weight spec'd for your engine will likely be even better for you as a U.S. owner (especially high speed high temp driving. Bottom line, U.S. Oil specs are at the practical "edge" of reasonable reccomendation for max engine longevity.

On another tangent, I've come to learn that engineers who are free to design tend to design for longevity, whereas engineers who are 'paid' tend to be straddled and design for reaching a minimum 'lifetime' value of the project. I wish we could have engineers on the public dollar rather than politicians....imagine the real solutions the could come up with.


You've read it correctly, or we both read it wrong. lol
 
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