To Auto-Rx, or not?

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I just purchased a 1991 Chev Silverado 4x4 with 4.3 V6. The school that I work for purchased it when it was a couple of years old and probably had less than 20k miles. Regular maintenance was done with Mobil bulk conventional 10w/30. OCI's were probably no more than 4k and driving was in town and around campus. Current odometer is 85500. Looked down the fill hole and did not see any signs of sludge, only heavy varnish. Given that, should I spend the money for Auto-Rx? I believe in their product, but it seems like the last time I ordered, it was around $18 per btl and free shipping. A single bottle today is over $30 shipped. Otherwise, I will do oil changes with PYB 10w/30 and a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil for an OCI or two.
 
I would go ewith the MMO if I was forced to use something. Nothing against Auto-rx but iv seen many posts showing it does little to nothing. If you check search you can find a list of people talking about it and you will run into a few before and afters.
 
$18, I'd say go for it.
$30+, I say forget it.

Mobil conventional is good oil, and if the OCI was under 4k miles, the rest of the system is probably clean. Would it be nice to use ARX, sure why not. But not at that price.

If I were to have recently purchased a vehicle in the same condition as yours, I'd buy two jugs of M1 HM to take advantage of the rebates going on right now and use those. M1 is an excellent cleaning oil, and I'd get the HM just for the extra seal conditioners even though you only have 85k miles on it.

After that, I'd go with the conventional oil and MMO combination.

Do you plan on changing any of the other fluids (transmission, differentials, brake fluid, etc.), or were those done as necessary by the school?
 
I would skip the MMO oil for sure and do a couple of short (3000 mile) oil changes. I used Auto-RX and found it did a very good job IF you follow directions. Using Auto-RX would be a good way to go if the cost isn't prohibitive. Ed
 
I don't know of any problems that varnish causes. It's just an appearance issue. Continue to use a name-brand oil in accordance with the owner's manual viscosity and OCI's.
 
The tranny probably needs a flush. Kind of a brownish tint to it, rather than cherry red. I will do that when I can afford it. Otherwise, I will suck out as much as possible and replace it with like amounts. I do plan to drain the front and rear differentials as well. The oil was last changed one year ago just before the school sold it. Only 1000 miles on the odoemeter since then.
After the school sold it, another gentleman in town owned it for a couple of months. I plan on calling him to see if he still has the file that the school gave him with the maintenance records on it.
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I would skip the MMO oil for sure and do a couple of short (3000 mile) oil changes. I used Auto-RX and found it did a very good job IF you follow directions. Using Auto-RX would be a good way to go if the cost isn't prohibitive. Ed


+1 - some people have Auto-Rx for sale here from time to time. Auto-Rx does work in some sludge situations, but not others. MMO probably never works.
 
It does not sound like you really have a problem. Just do regular Oil changes with a good brand of oil.

I have used Auto Rx to see if it would help with an oil leak at at the ream main seal and oil burning..........it did very little if anything.

The Engine was not particularly dirty but it does make claims that it can help reset rings and reduce oil leaks.

don't over think it.
 
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
I don't know of any problems that varnish causes. It's just an appearance issue.

In modern engines varnish can be anything but a cosmetic stain.
VVT, VCM, hydraulic lash adjusters/lifters, pressure relief valves, hydraulic tensioners, etc can all be negatively effected by varnish to the point the engine can stop running, run poorly or run on only half the cylinders.
Hardly just cosmetic.
 
I did it years ago when ARX was BITOG's sort of darling. Honestly, did it on a burner Saturn, a used Civic, and my own Camaro.

Noticed nothing and UOAs were unchanged. I never took the time to cut the oil filters but while it didn't harm anything, it didn't make any noticeable improvements.
 
I have used AutoRX twice. Not only did it not clean, I lost the cam shaft in one motor and a piston ring in the other. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I would never use it again.
 
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I have used AutoRX twice. Not only did it not clean, I lost the cam shaft in one motor and a piston ring in the other. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I would never use it again.


I doubt it was Auto-Rx.
 
^^^Exactly. We bought a case of the stuff back in the days when Frank the Crank was promoting it vigorously here.

As far as we could tell it did absolutely nothing except lighten our wallet. Then there was absolutely no honoring of their warranty, we got nuttin'...

The nature of these type of products mean they go into a lot of hopeless cases, thus they get blamed for weird failures a lot...
 
Hi all,

I would like to throw a few comments here on this subject based on years of dealing with varnish/sludge in really high precision equipment (turbines, some windmills and machining spindles) and hostile environments ( mining and steel) where almost anything can initiate a catastrophic failure. We do a lot of Pdm and technical cleaning/flushing on these machines and often the subject goes to “will this work in an engine” and we talk all about it.

Granted, none of this directly involves an IC engine (and professionally we really don’t do engines of any description except the occasional diesel stand by generators and the like) but sludge and varnish is sludge and varnish from the causal and chemistry perspectives and the potentials for affecting performance/causing damage are very close so some of this may be applicable to an automotive scenario. Even if not maybe some will find it informative reading from someone who does this on the industrial side and can take something useful away.

A lot of the manufacturers of these flushes also make either an industrial counterpart or sell it in bulk so I deal with several of them.

This is more of a general awareness and strong warning tutorial based on the failure analysis I have done after people used many of these products and I have been the one to tell them you just destroyed your million dollar machine because you listened to a salesman instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing or tried an unwise short cut.

In my professional experience, I STRONGLY do NOT recommend using in service chemical cleaners (insert brand here) EXCEPT, UNLESS and UNTIL the user has a proper flushing, cleaning and PURGING protocol that is proper for the specific machine being flushed. My experience doing this has shown me that when used properly in a cleaning protocol these agents can and do have a necessary and beneficial effect on a machine. I have also seen them be the causal factor in a catastrophic failure. I have also seen them as the agent of premature long term failure and wear out of a machine.

The difference in those 3 didn’t really have any bearing on the flush used as much as the pre flush assessment and actually flushing process and post flush purging.

(For the record before anyone calls me out, we are vendor/product neutral and have no dog whatsoever in the fight of using them or not or bias for or against and in no way whatsoever arguing/promoting/defending/attacking or attempting to change/influence any other persons belief- this is just fruits of experience from BOTH sides of the issue)

Flushes in General

Defined solely (and only) as a chemical compound that will clean varnish and sludge adequately under test conditions. Every one I have ever dealt with does this adequately just with varying degrees of success depending on type, concentration, solvent/detergent chemistry and whatever against the inherent qualities of the application being cleaned. Personally I am hard pressed to call any of them a snake oil from that perspective because they generally “work” as long as the flush selection matches the type lubricant and any other expected contamination. (Mismatched use is hardly the fault of the flush but I have seen them blamed quite a lot)

Decision to Flush

I personally get hit with this every time and have to address it and I have finally come to the conclusion that the “correct answer” is as long as it is wide depending on a ton of application specific variables.

I recommend universally a full spectrum lubrication analysis (that means everything) and a full review of trends (if available) and of course PM history before I even start. I also prefer (not always possible) a detailed technical inspection. I realize a lot of industrial machinery has inspection plates and is designed for technical inspections and car engines do not but consider this:

A flush CAN ( depending on a lot of things) either be a trigger for an immediate failure ( dislodging a gunk ball that clogs up or damages something) or a long term silent killer ( the residual immediately degrades the next oil making wear worse and faster than it should have been). Given that from a risk perspective this could cost me an engine or other significant repair, I would buy/borrow a bore scope and/or pull at least one valve cover and make a determination if I could get by with a series of oil changes with a high detergent additive to slowly clean my machine rather than risk a potential failure. (Me personally I would always pick this option if feasible)

Necessity to Flush

This is another guaranteed question the client is going to hit me with. To this very day I (and in concert with other experts in the oil industry, testing labs and OEMs working as a team) have never been able to determine a standard/answer or scientifically valid criteria for this decision and I would question not only the intelligence and sanity of anyone who says they can but really focus on their motive and agenda.

This is where I tend to go “moneychanger in the temple” on the sales reps for these flushes rather than their product. (The product is not the one doing the talking- a human is) I have seen these people use every type of scam, scare tactic, “pseudo-science”, outright lie, misrepresentation of data, CAREFULLY worded lab reports that if challenged on their accuracy and veracity in a court of law under the rules of evidence would subject them to perjury. This infuriates me because as the failure analysis, it falls to me to have to be the bearer of bad news then explain that your “miracle cure” was actually the poison.

The reality is that every machine using lubrication in the universe is going to build up scale, varnish and sludge at a rate based on oil degradation, temperature, acids, and a host of “stuff”. It’s equally real that every machine has a tolerance level of all of them where no action is really necessary. It’s also true that only certain areas and parts are affected by the big 3. I have seen applications that (considering performance to design or process criteria and overall lifecycle) where the 3 made little to no overall difference.

Conversely I have seen applications where even a slight discoloration or even thermal change wreaked havoc. In the applications I deal with it seems the more precision the tolerances, machined finishes and RPM- the greater the importance of mitigating the 3 become but that’s an unqualified observation as we don’t track metrics on any of that.

The question I pose to the client ( remember I am selling asset management and RCM so I try to save the client money on one side but make sure he spends what is necessary to maintain the equipment) is:

If you have a good maintenance history and no indication of a problem (this is based on a technical inspection- not a human guess) then why the need for a flush as opposed to a regular lubrication change (or online filtering in some applications)?

The answers I get are amazing to absolutely humorous. Some start critically thinking and others go off the deep end.

The short answer is that there is no answer. Barring a measurable failure mode it boils down to a human decision. All I recommend is that don’t get all intimidated by the gloom and doom sales hype of the promise of a sludge and varnish free Nirvana. Conduct your assessment and consider all the points then make a decision.

(Don’t get me wrong, with companies that have had traditionally weak best lubrication practices now being pushed to go green and actively promoting “asset management” and all that, I see a lot of machines that even I (who generally opposes flushing in favor of other methods) will tell you to break out the acid and this is a job for a hammer and chisel to get all this gunk out)

The Flushing Process

(The in-service process, not the commissioning version for brand new equipment which is substantially different and more of a break in)

The client decided to go forth and flush so the decision is past. Now I have to make sure his machine gets the cleaning he expects and is ready to run like a scalded dog when un- locked.
Here’s the first problem in flushing, you need TEMPERATURE and VELOCITY. Anyone who tells you that chemistry alone (especially in applications where you mix a cleaner in with existing oil as opposed to a total drain then refill with 100% cleaning agent) will clean anything adequately that has been in service is either a complete incompetent or is truly selling rain making.

Accumulated sludge and varnishing don’t just “happen” and even worse they accumulate in the pores creating a mechanical bond that gets harder over time when exposed to various forces. (Anything that will wash off with normal operation isn’t a major problem in the first place)

I point that out because I have performed failure analysis on some machines that failed due to this next item. People “flush” and true to form “some” of the gunk breaks loose and they move on. The problem is that a good amount of the flush chemical is still soaked into the remainder. Over time this desorbs back into the new lubricant and a lot of the remaining stuff comes off in gobs then clogged up something them BAM. (Or the next worse thing- this gunk starts circulating and breaking down the lube and wearing the machine at a faster rate)

I don’t know any way short of physical disassembly and inspection to tell whether an individual machine is close to that threshold or not but many are.

If I cannot “power” flush a machine (with whatever machine is designed for that application) I personally wouldn’t recommend attempting a chemical flush because not only the items stated above but the propensity for residuals to pool in crevices and ledges.

The Purging Process

I consider this even more important to the life of a machine than the flush. EVERY chemical strong enough to properly clean varnish and sludge is strong enough to “clean” (damage) the new oil. Nobody can really quantify the amount because that’s relative to type, concentration and volume of the 2 with an infinite number of variables.

I’m not talking about a new oil fill up and operating (that can cause damage doing just that- only the amount is unknown), I am talking about a true purge oil that is run through at the same temperature and pressure as the chemical for a period of time to completely flush out post loosened stuff as well as the flush agent before the first drop of new oil goes in.

Potential New Oil Damage

It makes little sense to me to go through all the trouble of a flush that is not fully purged thus imparting damage to the new oil that is there to protect the engine which is why I flushed in the first place. (Somewhat of a self-defeating vicious circle)
Then comes an interesting argument I have had with some vendors (one in particular) when they pop up and show all these analysis reports. (I guess they don’t think I have labs under contract too which specialize in industrial analysis) Actually we have had some labs cringe too when they were drug in.
They will say you don’t need to do all that because of that little bit remaining and so forth. (This is an unknown amount) I understand they are trying to promote, defend and ultimately sell their product.

Here’s my response. I ask them directly “If your product is not strong enough to damage the new oil, how can it be strong enough to meet all your claims of cleaning my machine”? (They are being manipulated into the kill zone now and the cross hairs are moving toward the target)

They usually start tap dancing at that point because they just realized that both cannot be true.

The whole point to that long and boring post was awareness of the total process and identification of potential effects of using chemical cleaners and flushing activities.

Those who think they are all post-consumer reptile by products are totally correct.

Those who think they are good and often necessary for long term asset care are totally correct.

The only opinion that matters is what you think.

All I’m saying is take nothing at face value or for granted and follow the proper steps as best you can to minimize any potential undesired outcome.
 
I have used it. It definitely cleans. It cleaned up deposits causing a leak in my rear main seal. took less than a thousand miles to get the deposits removed and stop the leak.

also noticed much more pep and it wasn't just the butt dyno. My escape (the application) is a dog for the most part with bigger tires and didn't have any umph. During the cleaning phase, about halfway through, it would actually chirp the tires on dry asphalt if you goosed the throttle too much. It hadn't done that since it was brand new.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Exactly. We bought a case of the stuff back in the days when Frank the Crank was promoting it vigorously here.

As far as we could tell it did absolutely nothing except lighten our wallet. Then there was absolutely no honoring of their warranty, we got nuttin'...

The nature of these type of products mean they go into a lot of hopeless cases, thus they get blamed for weird failures a lot...


Thats been my experience also with this product. IMHO its not worth the plastic bottle it comes in.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Exactly. We bought a case of the stuff back in the days when Frank the Crank was promoting it vigorously here.

As far as we could tell it did absolutely nothing except lighten our wallet. Then there was absolutely no honoring of their warranty, we got nuttin'...

The nature of these type of products mean they go into a lot of hopeless cases, thus they get blamed for weird failures a lot...


Thats been my experience also with this product. IMHO its not worth the plastic bottle it comes in.


It obviously DOES work for Donald though, although I think he has said that he has gotten free product for hawking it.
 
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