2011 Duramax 12,200 km Duron 30

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BC, Canada
Alum 33
Chrom 1
copper 16
Iron 31
lead 1
silicone 8
All others 0
sodium 10
boron 43
calcium 2722
magnesium 14
Zink 1290
Phosph 1071
Oxid/AN 0.03
Soot 0.12
Water/fuel 00
Glycol Neg
ISO particles "A"
KV40 85.7
KV100 11.7
Sept 2/2014-march 8/2015
150+ cold starts/196 hours
one liter was added at 8,000km/Duron 50
Previous oil was Duron 40
Oil level was at full at 12,200 km
The high alumnum and iron didn't surprise
me. As the oil aged, the cold starts became
noticeably slower cranking.
Engine/exhaust braking use is high on this truck.
The copper was much lower than before.
As predicted, mono grades do not shear down.
 
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Still have DPF?, If so your doing great with 0 fuel dilution...It looks like most LML's do very well with the "9th" injector compared to Dodge & Fords "In-Cylinder" approach.

I have not seen mine or other Duramax engines shear multigrade oil very much at all. May I ask if you have a reason for running monograde?
 
Yes I still run the DPF and DEF.
I ran the monograde is because someone
told me that I can not or should not.
I have a UOA from the same engine using
PCMO 10W40. It sheared down from KV40 15.4
to 11.7 in 11,500 Km.
The copper was off the chart at 129, but
iron was 19 instead of 31 with the 10W40.
Everything else about the same, except the add-pack
got used up more significantly for the same mileage
with the VII'd 10W40 PCMO.
Fuel was 0.5% with the 10W40. I let the oil drain 1/2
before taking the sample this time which might explain
the change.
 
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The engine used 1 liter in 12,200 km or 7,500 miles.
Some mono grades such as Mobil 1630 are much higher
ash than Duron or Mobil's 1330.
Some people add ATF or other lubricants to the fuel,
which would total a lot more ash than my one liter
over a 6 month period.
Those new cars that go through a liter of 5W20 every
thousand miles or so, must add a lot of junk to the
3 way cat over the course of a year.
 
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Originally Posted By: used_0il
Yes I still run the DPF and DEF.
I ran the monograde is because someone
told me that I can not or should not.
I have a UOA from the same engine using
PCMO 10W40. It sheared down from KV40 15.4
to 11.7 in 11,500 Km.
The copper was off the chart at 129, but
iron was 19 instead of 31 with the 10W40.
Everything else about the same, except the add-pack
got used up more significantly for the same mileage
with the VII'd 10W40 PCMO.
Fuel was 0.5% with the 10W40. I let the oil drain 1/2
before taking the sample this time which might explain
the change.


PCMO 10W40? Never thought of running that in any diesel engine. Doesn't HDEO have different add-packs?

Thanks for posting, Your a braver man than me to try these things on such an expensive engine!!
 
I can certainly appreciate someone trying different oils and documenting as such, but I agree, a 12k dollar engine is an expensive test! Do you tow heavy? Or often?
 
The pcmo 10W40 was Pet-Can's, but I'm not plugging
their products. I would expect similar results from
GTX etc.
However, the best fuel economy and not by a small margin
was with the PCMO.
With the same milage, the 10W40 sheared down to exactly
the same KV100 as the SAE 30 did.
Cold starting became progressively worse with both grades
as the winters dragged on.
Previous, I used 0W40 or 5W40 HDMOs and got spoiled,
never having to plug the block heaters in.
Soot loading appears low in my Diesel pick-up.
TBN retention appears better with my Duramax than UOAs
on a 2013 5.3 1500 gasoline engine.
Throw out soot and TBN concerns.
I'll be saving mono-grades for 3-season use from now on
and delay my pre-winter oil change until it is needed.
That way, oil ageing will not degrade the cold start
properties before the cold weather ends.

Now the big question.....
Take away the high aluminum in my UOA, I think 5W40 will
eliminate some of that next winter.

The high base oil viscosity of the SAE 30 and my driving
habits are doing the work the additives would otherwise do.
From what I am seeing, SAE 30 HDMO could likely go twice as
far as the 12,200 Km when I chickened out and changed it.

One word of caution. 2004TGIGLS posted the Pet-Can link for the
Duron mono-grades above.
The SAE 30 is listed as a marine oil "not requiring water separation".
Not all approved marine lubricants are suitable for automotive use.
 
How many miles on the veh?

I think you would be better served with a traditional multi-grade HDEO.

The Fe and Al are likely from high piston/cyl interaction. Could be the monograde not pumping well at the oil squirters?

It's yours; do as you see fit. But there's no reason a Dmax shouldn't turn in less wear than that.
 
Just turned 73,000 Km or about 45,000 miles.
Still breaking in.
Wear numbers would be much lower if I got into the
truck and drove it 7,500 miles on an interstate.

It scaled at 10,400 one day when I thought it was acting sluggish.
 
The numbers you're seeing at not destructive overall. But this is a Dmax and it can do better.

I presume you're essentially running shorter trips and lots of cold starts.

As I said, the thicker mono-grade is probably not squirting the underside of the pistons and cyl walls quite as well as it could with a multi-grade. Add that issue to pulling heavy loads (which load up the piston/cyl interaction) and you're going to get exactly what you have; higher wear on the Fe liner and Al piston. I'm surprised there not a small escalation in Cr, but that's not always seen.

The Dmax Cu phenomenon is a known issue; frequent brand/chemistry changes will exaggerate the chelation issue from the oil cooler. Pick one brand and stay there; it will settle down.

At 73k-km (45k miles) your Dmax should be already broken in; data shows this to tbe true. The wear you're seeing is true wear and not "break-in" at this point.

I'd recommend a 10w-30 HDEO; there are some good choices up your way. I know Garak has mentioned them but I'm not able to recall what they are at the moment. Again - you're not in danger here, but this is a Dmax and it could certainly do better. You are correct; you can use a 30 mono. But to what point? A multi-grade may give you less wear.

As an experiement, this isn't going to kill your engine, but it's not "normal" either. Perhaps play with this for a few more cycles, then switch to a 10w-30 HDEO and run some more UOAs. Convince yourself which is better one way or another.
 
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If I was going to run a monograde in a modern CR diesel, I would only do it in the heat of summer-your Dmax must have better starting abilities than my diesels, they would need a pan heater to start with straight 30 below 10F/-10C or so.
 
I would call this mono-grade test a worst case scenario.
One long trip followed by a winter of cold starts and
piston slap.
The oil held together rather well I thought, the
cold starts were better in November than they were
in February for a given temperature.
Duron 15W40E is in the truck now.
I'm not planning a UOA at the 8,000 mile mark, because
we already know the numbers long summer trips and 15W40
HDMO's return in Duramax.
(What is plural for Duramax, Durami?)
The wear contaminate I'm most concerned about is lead.
Which was zero. This should mean a HTHS of 3.5 is good enough.
I don't know enough about temporary shear to comment if
3.5 in a mono-grade equates to 3.5 in a VII'd multi-grade.

Aluminum, and the application of friction modified engine oils.
The 10W40 PCMO did better with the same duty cycle and in the same engine.
The Delo 15W30 is an interesting addition to the mix.
I would expect similar results using that instead of Duron 30,
which is a 20W30 by any other name.
I believe that, because 15WXX does not provide the cold start
protection I need, especially after the oil has aged in use.

Delo 15W30 UOAs should be coming in soon, which should duplicate
SAE 30 UOAs in summer applications.
You won't find these oils at give-away prices.

The 20L pail of Mobil 1330 I just bought was over $100.00
including disposal, environment and carbon tax on top of
income tax of 38%, (or whatever the top rate is this week).

My plan for next winter is 5W40 HDMO changing the oil a little
later in the fall.
One last thought. If the high aluminum was caused by piston slap
and occurred down the cylinder bore, then it is not a concern
for me.
The wear at the top ring turn-around point, the next 1.5 inches
below that and the plain bearings are the areas I worry about.

(Thanks to dnewton 3's ATF post below the new Duramax UOA,
I got the Dextron 6 out of the Allison.
It is working much better now.)
 
I wonder if a shot of barium would help the cold engine
lubrication?
Unlike the other additives, it may not need as much heat
to activate.
One liter, or 10% CD 50 transmission oil that is loaded
with the stuff should do the trick.
Does barium play well with the other children in the sandbox?
The natural progression is to eventually play chemist on BITOG.
 
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I wonder what the particle size of the aluminum is
and if a 5 micron filter change the UOA?

Whatever happened to the guy who used
JTO as an engine oil additive?

Would the cost justify the results if it helped
cold lubrication?
 
I would caution you on a conclusion you've made ...

Quote:
The 10W40 PCMO did better with the same duty cycle and in the same engine


First and foremost, you're taking singular snapshots and announcing something is "better" than another. This is a great error common to many, without consideration for "normalcy" in data streams. Please read my article about UOA normalcy on the front page of the site. You cannot look at one UOA and claim it's better than another without knowing the averages of the condition as well as typical variation. I don't see any indication you've run nearly enough samples to claim something is "better".


As for this ...
Quote:
(What is plural for Duramax, Durami?)

I don't know; would it be Duramaxxis? Duramaxes? Duramax'? Duramaximum?
For that matter, what does one call a group of Dmax equipped trucks when seen in public? Is it a herd? A gaggle? A pride? A swarm? A pack?

grin2.gif
 
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....Flock, school, pod?

One observation is not conclusive evidence of a trend.

I'm not trying to extract anything from 2 UOAs, but I
posted them instead of keeping them to myself.

Lets take diving and figure skating.
Five judges see 5 different scores.
The top and bottom scores are dropped.
The total of the remaining 3 are
displayed on the scoreboard.

Everyone reading my UOA may extract a
conclusion and form an opinion.

The purpose of a UOA to determine the condition
of the oil for continued use, and to identify small
mechanical problems before they grow into big ones.

The high wear metals are a moot point that
cannot be taken into account without long term trending.

What is the physical condition of the oil sample?

Only one liter was added at 8,000 Km and the dipstick
was still at the full mark at 12,200 Km.

Could this oil, based on the UOA been left in service?
 
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Originally Posted By: used_0il
The 10W40 PCMO did better with the same duty cycle and in the same engine


Originally Posted By: used_0il
...One observation is not conclusive evidence of a trend.

I'm not trying to extract anything from 2 UOAs, but I
posted them instead of keeping them to myself.





These two quotes from you are contradictory.
I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'm pointing out that it's improper to state something is "better" without a good statistical basis, which you clearly did state and you clearly don't have.
 
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Lets do the math on 33ppm of aluminum X 12 liters of
oil (11+1) after 12,200 km of service.
We will assume that the source of the aluminum is from
the 8 pistons.
What will be the total weight loss per piston after
1.22 million Km be?

Next test;
Petro-Can Produro 30 TO-4 in 2013 5.3 GMC 1500.

40C 89
100C 11
150C 3.5
ZDDP 1290
Phos 1.3
Sulfur 3700
Ca 3800
SA 1.3

We will see if that oil does "better" than
the 15W40 I tried and tested last summer
at the 10,000 Km mark.
With virtually zero oil consumption, the high SAPS
should be a moot point.

OOPS! I can't use the term "better".
Lets see if the wear metals are lower
on the 2nd test with a contrasting oil.

Plural for Matrix? (2013s)

My home brew 15W30 is going into 2 of them next month.
 
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