Shifting Stribeck Curve to the Left: What to Use?

[CrawfishTails]

[aa1986/]
And if this stuff becomes available, it will be interesting to watch the discussions that take place when people refuse to believe that a 0w12 with IL is better than an old school 0w20 or 0w30. [/quote]

Actually, all the current SL (Super-Lubricity) additives such as Biotech or Hyperlube (not many) that can create this effect are often skipped over by people who don't believe its possible to improve on a good fully-ready motor oil. Dropping viscosity aside, using a synergistic anti-wear additive can beef up the toughness of the oil film from papers I've read.

Also, I wonder if operating in thinner oil films makes oil filter efficiency even more important to get out even smaller particles to fit in there.

 

[turtlevette]

I thought the Castrol magnatec was ionic.

 

[CrawfishTails]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I thought the Castrol magnatec was ionic.


Castrol Magnatec is not the IL Ionic Lubricant family. I think Magnatec might be using some kind of polar ester chemistry, just don't know what they use. Proprietary secrets. They market the heck out of Magnatec for its ability to form a special tribofilm of some kind, assuming no other oil does it as good! Shannow once said he sat down with a Castrol person down under I guess, where the Castrol person said Magnatec's effect stays up in the engine even after you change your oil to some other brand oil.

bobbydavro, another bitog username, works for or with Castrol in some capacity unknown, and he says they developed Castrol Magnatec because of the worry about frequent starts in Japanese hybrids years ago, so something is going on with Magnatec related to SL tribofilms at low temperatures.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah the guy sad that Magnatec effect was carried through the flushing oil and into the baseline oil (M1 5W50 of all things in the Castrol lab) post magnatec test.

His statement was that the Magnetec was for the interim part of warm-up, where the viscosity was dropping, and the typical additives haven't kicked in.

Castrol bottles down here push the sequence IVA test as where it is supposed to shine...which is consistent with the conversation.

I pushed him on ester, and he smiled and made no comment...

 

[CrawfishTails]

Castrol Magnatec could be better than most. Castrol's more expensive synthetic oils might do the same thing. Anybody choosing Magnatec can't go wrong.

 

[Shannow]

There's a couple of UOAs on my Nissan turbodiesel with Magnatec SP 5W40 synthetic from quite a few years ago.

 

[Shannow]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...amp;Search=true

it's 5w40, A3/B4, so lot thicker than this discussion.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Also, I wonder if operating in thinner oil films makes oil filter efficiency even more important to get out even smaller particles to fit in there.


Would certainly think so...

The history of white metal was that it was "embedable", and particles bigger than the MOFT would get jammed into the white metal and not sit there scoring things...as more boundary is getting into designs, the bearings are becoming harder, and less embedable, as the localised pressures can be higher than the strength of the old white metals.

https://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulle...gine%20Wear.pdf

The wrist pin is fairly well boundary lubricated, as there's no continuous motion/direction of rotation...and it gets second hand oil not fresh filtered...just look at the difference particle size plays in those charts.

If the cranks head towards boundary, then there will be little side-flow in the location, and the crank/bearing are becoming the filtering element...imagine a log jam of particles that can't migrate to the ends of the bearings.

 

[CrawfishTails]

Shannow ^^^^ It will be interesting to see what oil filter specs may come out in the future when car oil is presumably IL with 0w-16 and the bearings don't widen much to compensate of course. Then, the lower oil film thickness (tougher film but still thin) will be more wear-sensitive to those particles.

Maybe the Fram Ultra performance level of 80% at 5 microns, a figure I've not seen any other oil filter beat, will become the norm instead of cheap paper OEM type oil filters that only do 80% at something like 20 microns or so.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: aa1986
Ionic liquids appear to alter the Stribeck curve - although it's not a shift to the left.

Now are IL's considered additives or base oil substitutes? From what I've read, you only need a small proportion of IL to improve the friction and wear characteristics of PAO so in that respect it seems to be an additive?


IL's do shift the Stribeck curve to the left. It is an additive. From tech papers and discussions here, I've concluded that IL's are too surface-competitive (interfere with anti-wear stuff already in normal motor oil), so that make poor aftermarket oil additives. In the class of stuff you can add to oil that doesn't interfere with whats already in motor oil, polymer esters have the lead, maybe moly, and I don't know what else. OK, chlorinated parrafins not bad either I guess. Any more though?


IMO the aftermarket additive doesn't have to completely be non-competitive, but just properly manage the interactions to obtain the final result. In my experience, this means that a combination of polymeric esters combined with FM/AW chemistry that interact well together could produce the results you are looking for.

IE - initial boundary reactions allow the tribolayer to be formed using polymeric esters, and then the surface chemistry (boron-moly road, zddp, chloro-paraffin whatever) becomes active which then spawns the next reaction as the temperature/ pressure increases.

The difficulty then comes with what do you do with the other important chemistry like detergents and dispersants and how they interact with your new boundary layer. The final aftermarket package then must be developed (similar to how a DI pack is developed) to control these interactions and tested to ensure they don't conflict with the required protections specified by the OEMs/API/etc.

Then now you have this product, designed for the aftermarket, you have to understand it will interact with different brand oils in different ways, and the operating conditions must also be taken into consideration. So then the additive + engine oil combination is what you have to test to get the results you were looking for.

Here is a product that was designed to do exactly what we are discussing:
PowerUp EngineMaxx

I would suspect that Bioguard and the Magnatec formulas function on a similar premise, as there are likely other products that maybe exist but don't have the distribution or advertising to become mainstream.

Another issue with these kinds of products is they end up being incredibly expensive, and then you have to ask yourself what is the return are you getting? That money could easily be spent on more frequent oil changes or other better yet, more frequent visits to warm, sunny climates.