Should you tell a customer what's wrong or just ho

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


So you are basically admitting that there IS a huge problem
with the industry in general being loaded with incompetent,
shady, and greedy people?

Ya, I guess you could say that. As I had a Chevy Dealer quote me $350 bucks to replace a water pump in a chevy van with the 350 engine.

Had an independent shop do it for me for $30 parts and $50 bucks labor, while My wife and I ate lunch.

YMMV

 

[Trav]

The codes don't give the cause only the part of the system that is effected.
This is where the DIY and basic mechanics fall down.
Sometimes its true you can bet on it being the part the code mentions like a O2 sensor heater but a lot of the time you cant.

A Nissan or Infiniti has a P1273 (many code readers cant even read this one) for example and watch how quick they throw the towel in after buying a bunch of new parts sold to them by the friendly "we check it for free" counter guy.
Yes i know what it is and how to fix it but that info will cost a few $.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: jk_636

Just the cost of doing business I suppose.


Treat your customers well and provide reasonably priced service and they will come back continually.


But speaking strictly as a consumer, charging people for things like a CEL that they can get for free leads to a lack of return business.


You don't need a 5k scan tool to diagnose (or get a rough idea) of what's wrong 80% of the time. You know that. It's just a way to milk extra money from the clientele. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but let's call a spade a spade.


In descending order:

The cost of doing business is accounted for and reflected on customer's bill. Doesn't matter if it's a grocery store, a motel or a repair shop. Our shop is small, it and it's contents are paid for and we have quite low overhead, therefor our cost of doing business is lower than the typical shop. The bill the customer receives reflects it too.


I do. I go out of my way EVERY DAY to keep them happy. I replaced an A/C compressor the other day while the customer was out of state. End result- the belt started chirping. I thought that maybe it was like that before the fix. Cust picked it up on a Sunday when he got back into town. He stopped by on the following Monday and stated the noise wasn't there to begin with. In an attempt to quiet it, he had sprayed WD-40 on it, ruining the belt and making the noise worse. I cleaned everything up, installed one of my own belts and sent him out the door until I could look at it in more detail- all free of charge. When I could, I went and picked it up from his place of work and found the issue (compressor misaligned). I ordered a replacement and will retrieve his truck again when the new one comes in. Why? To keep him happy. It wasn't his fault, so why should he make repeated early morning trips to our shop? When it's all said and done he'll pay for the belt I installed at a reduced rate (he did ruin his belt after all, not me). Another customer was so happy with our work and fair price that his wife dropped off a tin of home made sweet rolls. No joke... They had found us through a recommendation from another customer because they were getting tired of getting hosed by other shops. We also get sweet corn, green beans, venison and more from our customers. All are unsolicited gifts.


Wrong. The overwhelming majority of customers to a shop (mine included) either don't know or don't care about these things. They return to me because the price is (more than) fair, the quality of work is excellent and because I'm honest. Also, FWIW, I do have a few DIY customers who come to me when they're in over their heads. They too go to the parts stores to get codes retrieved. I'm up front and tell them that our diagnostic fee doesn't go away just because they have a code. The money I charge to read the code also buys them a small amount of time to figure out the issue if needed. More than that and they get billed hourly, within reason. If they are insistent about not scanning and arbitrarily replacing xyz part, then that's what they get. But if it fails to remedy the issue, and still want me to look into it, they are going to pay the fee. Now I will say that for gas cap related EVAP issues (gas cap only) I don't charge. If there are more than one code related to the EVAP, then they will be billed. If tightening the gas cap fails to resolve the issue, and I have to invest time/resources in figuring it out, they're getting billed.


You're right, I don't always need a 5k+ dollar tool to diagnose. But I'm not going to buy a bunch of machines to diagnose what I perceive to be an easy or hard problem. It is the tool that I need to do my job. It's not a way to milk the customer- it's how you pay your bills. Also, see the previous example of taking time to diag a problem but then having the customer want to do it themselves. How am I to pay for the resources I invested in figuring out the issue? I shouldn't have to go into the red to help a customer out.


Personally I feel that your view point on this subject is a bit skewed. You sound like a reasonably proficient DIY'er. I was too, before going to work for a shop. That one was crooked, dishonest and high priced. But it was there that I started to get an inside view of the cost of doing business. After I left there and joined with my best friend in our own little shop, it really hit me. Even then I still had troubles charging accordingly. The first year was a little shaky but as time wears on, and our customer base grows, we're doing better and better. Speaking of customer base- it has grown nearly exclusively from word of mouth only. We have an add in a local yellow pages type phone book and a small church flyer, but to be honest I don't think it's helped much, if any. So our charging for diagnostics doesn't appear to be hurting us any.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric



Treat your customers well and provide reasonably priced service and they will come back continually.




I do. I go out of my way EVERY DAY to keep them happy. I replaced an A/C compressor the other day while the customer was out of state. End result- the belt started chirping. I thought that maybe it was like that before the fix. Cust picked it up on a Sunday when he got back into town. He stopped by on the following Monday and stated the noise wasn't there to begin with. In an attempt to quiet it, he had sprayed WD-40 on it, ruining the belt and making the noise worse. I cleaned everything up, installed one of my own belts and sent him out the door until I could look at it in more detail- all free of charge. When I could, I went and picked it up from his place of work and found the issue (compressor misaligned). I ordered a replacement and will retrieve his truck again when the new one comes in. Why? To keep him happy. It wasn't his fault, so why should he make repeated early morning trips to our shop? When it's all said and done he'll pay for the belt I installed at a reduced rate (he did ruin his belt after all, not me). Another customer was so happy with our work and fair price that his wife dropped off a tin of home made sweet rolls. No joke... They had found us through a recommendation from another customer because they were getting tired of getting hosed by other shops. We also get sweet corn, green beans, venison and more from our customers. All are unsolicited gifts.


Wrong. The overwhelming majority of customers to a shop (mine included) either don't know or don't care about these things. They return to me because the price is (more than) fair, the quality of work is excellent and because I'm honest.




@The_Eric:

I only wish we had techs and shops like yours in my area of the country, I would be happy to be your customer and you would be thrilled to have me as your customer. Some years ago (Now closed owners retired) in another part of the country (Philly burbs) I used an excellent shop run by honest folks that were super competent, and charged VERY reasonable prices, there were a number of times when I believed that they had under charged me a bit and I made sure that I compensated for that with with gift cards after each job.

 

[jk_636]

Trav: I understand that codes don't diagnose the problem, rather provide a symptom. If you don't know what to do with that information, you will most definitely never diagnose the problem, or you will inadvertly fix it by changing part after part.

Eric: I understand that you have to put bread on the table. I also understand how the cost of doing business is reflected in the customers bill. I work as a medic in the prehospital care setting. Ever heard of a $500 aspirin? Unfortunately the many must pay for the sins of the few. I didn't do the billing I am just a care provider, but there does seem to be a direct parralel between the two topics.

Please understand that I am speaking as a DIY customer at best. That puts me in a different clientel base because I would imagine the majority of automotive shops do not have customers who care enough or are mechanically inclined enough for doing the repair themself. I go to shops on a regular (every 30k mile) basis for having BG services done, but that is only because I don't want to have to buy all the special machinery to do it myself. That being said, and I speak solely for myself, if I bring a problem to a mechanic, that means I have already done the following:
1) checked for easy fixes and tried non invasive remedies.
2) researched every resource possible to look for similar problems and how they were fixed.
3) checked probable causes and eliminated common variables that can fail.

If I go through all that and have exhausted all my resources, and only need a code read and the problem fixed, then a fee for that 5 second read would be an instant turn off. The fact that I tried to fix it, then took time out of my day (time is money) to take it to them means that I have every intention of letting them do the work. I'm sure that there are some out there that would abuse the privilege, but I wouldn't be sitting there out of pocket all day if I didn't want it fixed. That is just me though. How do you see this, from a professional mechanics standpoint?

 

[The_Eric]

jk- our customer base varies quite a bit. Some have no skills and only care that their car/truck runs. I could fix with a big hammer, bailing wire, bubble gum and some duct tape and as long as the price was in line, they'd be happier than a pig in... well you get the idea. Others don't have the skills or knowledge to do auto work, but are fussier than a mother hen! Still others have a pretty good idea, but are now physically unable. One guy used to do everything to his cars/trucks but now there are some days he can't hardly get out of bed. All get treated equally and all get the same (more or less) quality of work. Granted I'm not going to put my all into a total jalopy, especially if they keep me on a pretty tight leash $$$ wise, but they'll know it beforehand.

As for that last bit- I really appreciate a customer not being a tire kicker... I've got one or two and it's darned annoying. If you truly only want a code pulled, we could likely work something out. However you trying to fix it and doing your homework really doesn't alter what I'm going to do or charge, even if you tell me what all you've done. Why??? Well I've been burnt a few times assuming that a customer was knowledgeable enough to get certain things right, or this or that. Ended up that they overlooked something simple, broke a part or... whatever. I think you get picture.

Maybe my viewpoint is a little different, because our diagnostic fee is nowhere near the $80.00 you mentioned. I only get $35.00 to read codes, go through the various menus and spend up to 15-20 minutes looking for the issue. More than that and I bill by the hour. It's a one time (per issue) deal.

 

[jk_636]

It seems like you run your shop very well. Though I remain opposed to a CEL scan charge, I understand your side of the argument and I'm glad that you only charge $35. At least If someone had to pay a diagnostic fee, it's always better if it is reasonably priced.

I think I should clarify something. I haven't trusted most mechanics since the day I got suckered in to a "$10 oil change special" at the local shop in town. Make a long story short, I encountered an oil leak after the change, shop told me that it was going to be a couple thousand to fix the oil pan gasket, head gasket, rear main seal etc. I drove it home, and simply tightened the drain plug. Problem solved. It is organizations like that which give many in your profession a bad name. I didnt mean to refer to all mechanics as arseholes, but that one really fit the bill.

I think this has been a very informative thread for the OP. He had the chance to get multiple viewpoints from other industry professionals and customers alike. Thanks for all your input as well Eric.

 

[SteveSRT8]

IMO people looking for a freebie are foolish.

Shops have huge overhead and must make money or they won't be there next year for ya.

I am fine with any reasonable diagnostic fee, my fav indy guy will deduct that from his labor total anyway as long as you do the work with him...

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
IMO people looking for a freebie are foolish.

Shops have huge overhead and must make money or they won't be there next year for ya.

I am fine with any reasonable diagnostic fee, my fav indy guy will deduct that from his labor total anyway as long as you do the work with him...


People that don't want to pay a diagnostic fee are foolish? That statement in and of itself is ridiculous.

All businesses have overhead. But you don't get to keep your shop open by tacking every charge you can to a consumer that may not come back.

I agreed with the reasonable fee. If someone is going to pay it, at least it won't break the bank. You make your money on the repair though, so the fee is just a bonus that some people don't want to pay. Especially diy afternoon and weekend mechanic such as myself.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Please explain why any client of any biz should expect anything for free. Why? I run a successful biz, we don't give away anything, never have.

Do you own or operate a business? Can you offer free anything and make money?

Talking about foolish, how about you be the champ of misinformed...

 

[jk_636]

Go back and read fhe posts on this thread. There have been numerous points made on both sides of the aisle. Reading codes for "free" doesn't mean they are actually free. The cost of labor and parts makes up for 20 minutes of scan time. In the automotive repair industry there is no garauntee that the customer will return. That's why it is important to make them fell like they got a "deal." No different than companies giving out free samples or casinos giving out free food and meals. I'm not sure what business you're in, but sometimes you give something up on the front end to make the profit on the back end. You have to listen to consumers, and make them feel like they are getting something at an affordable and reasonable price tag. That or they inevitably stop coming. Especially in a business where word of mouth is everything.

 

[antiqueshell]

@jk_636:

I agree with you up to a point about offering a few freebies, but it should be a limited offering, perhaps as a special coupon deal.

But I have to say the best, most competent, and honest techs and shops should not have to offer too many free services. They deserve to be well payed for their outstanding service. I desperately wish that I had somebody like The_Eric in my area, unfortunately all we have are a bunch of hacks, and crooks, masquerading as auto service "professionals.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Any biz that offers too many freebies will be short lived.

I would almost be suspicious if there were free offers, as that is simply not good business. That is an opinion, and may be why there are many shops with many differing practices.

No freebies here in a viciously competitive biz supported by WOM advertising for over 40 years, none of my good clients wants or expects me to do anything for free...

 

[jk_636]

What business are you even in SRT?

 

[jk_636]

Steve, even though you didn't reply Im pretty sure you get the point. There are varying business strategies, and there is no one size fits all model. What is agreed upon is that some people would be much happier getting things for "free" than for a "fee." That is why places like autozone give out those cheap free CEL codes. After they run it, they understand there is a high likelyhood that the customer will buy their parts while they are there. The "free" scan just gets them in the door.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
In the automotive repair industry there is no garauntee that the customer will return.


You're right- there is no guarantee. That's why it's important to make sure that you've got your time, materials and other resources covered. You bill the customer for the services you provided because you may never see them again.

That's not to say that I'm going to peg a die hard, long time excellent customer for every last red cent, but I will make sure I've got all my bases covered with a new customer... and they'll know exactly what they're getting into before I start.




Originally Posted By: jk_636
That's why it is important to make them fell like they got a "deal."



Also right. But a "deal" shouldn't be for free. It's making sure there is value in what they just forked money over for.

 

[The_Eric]

I wanted to add that freebies aren't really what keeps people coming back... at least in my opinion. Being well spoken and polite, addressing their concerns with sincerity and professionalism, making the right diagnosis and repair the first time, them billing them reasonably when done is what keeps them coming back.

Offering free services and discounts is a slippery slope. If you open the door, they'll come running right through it.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
What business are you even in SRT?


We clean floors, furniture and other stuff. Started in 1972...

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I wanted to add that freebies aren't really what keeps people coming back... at least in my opinion. Being well spoken and polite, addressing their concerns with sincerity and professionalism, making the right diagnosis and repair the first time, them billing them reasonably when done is what keeps them coming back.

Offering free services and discounts is a slippery slope. If you open the door, they'll come running right through it.


Absolutely the truth. But very few of the shops here live by that
ethic here.

 

[Vikas]

I believe if you look for, you will find it. I might agree with you that there are lot of them those are not like that but if you keep your ears open, you should be able to find it. As a matter of keeping your end of bargain, you need to stop price shopping once you find the place. If you get 0.99c state inspection coupon (or something equivalent) from another place, you need to shred it immediately.