Nitrogen fill for $199

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Originally Posted By: Traction
Interesting explanation. Takes a long time for oxygen to migrate back into the tire. Water vapor can migrate back into the tire also. No scientific explanation, but moisture outside the tries to equalize with the dry air in the tire like a wick.


Nope diffusion IS the scientific explanation...it's been understood for ages.

Yep, will take longer for it to leak in, as I showed with the driving force (pressures).

Interesting if you want to minimise oxygen migration rate THROUGH the rubber, you need to have 3psi inside the tyre to start with...that's 3 out of the 45psi absolute, or 6.7% oxygen in the tyre at initial fill.
 
Originally Posted By: Bill_G
Could you help my grandson with his Science8 homework? Haha


Love to...spent a year tutoring a friend's daughter who was struggling in year 12 chemistry...was stoked when she made money while at University...tutoring chemistry.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Traction
Interesting explanation. Takes a long time for oxygen to migrate back into the tire. Water vapor can migrate back into the tire also. No scientific explanation, but moisture outside the tries to equalize with the dry air in the tire like a wick.


Nope diffusion IS the scientific explanation...it's been understood for ages.

Yep, will take longer for it to leak in, as I showed with the driving force (pressures).

Interesting if you want to minimise oxygen migration rate THROUGH the rubber, you need to have 3psi inside the tyre to start with...that's 3 out of the 45psi absolute, or 6.7% oxygen in the tyre at initial fill.


Sorry, but do you fill your tires up with convenience store air spitting out water, and O2? I never will.
 
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Originally Posted By: Traction


Sorry, but do you fill your tires up with convenience store air spitting out water, and O2? I never will.


Dry, pure nitrogen is excellent for inflating tires. The question is at what price....?

I have inflated tires with compressed "regular..." air for 30 years and never had a problem . So to me, free is the only acceptable price for nitrogen.

It is just one more way for a shop to make more money... someone was remarkably creative... just like the "shop supplies..." fee applied to every service invoice... two sprays of brake cleaner, a finger full of sealant and a rag... and I am asked to pay $ 30.00 bucks for shop supplies...seriously...?

Gotta grow the service revenue somehow, I guess.
 
Since the subject is filling tires with nitrogen:

This past weekend I was viewing videos of the Formula 1 testing in Jerez Spain, and noticed the sophisticated pit set ups. They have a rig that hangs over the pit box - and for those who don't follow F1, they have 3 guys on each wheel: 1 with the gun, 1 taking the tire off, and 1 putting the next tire on. Pit stops can be less than 3 seconds!

Those rigs are powered by - wait for it - nitrogen bottles, which are mounted on pedestal (which is what I noticed for the first time.) 6 bottles in some cases.

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.

Based on the fact that these guys spend tens of millions of dollars every year, I find it interesting that they use simple nitrogen bottles and not air compressors.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill_G
Could you help my grandson with his Science8 homework? Haha


Love to...spent a year tutoring a friend's daughter who was struggling in year 12 chemistry...was stoked when she made money while at University...tutoring chemistry.


Thanks for the thought - you obviously did an outstanding job teaching your friend's daughter.
 
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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire


Once a volume is filled, the fact that it's a refrigerant gas doesn't cause it to create any cooling.

Needs to have a compression, cooling, expansion, heat absorption cycle going on to cool anything.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Since the subject is filling tires with nitrogen:

This past weekend I was viewing videos of the Formula 1 testing in Jerez Spain, and noticed the sophisticated pit set ups. They have a rig that hangs over the pit box - and for those who don't follow F1, they have 3 guys on each wheel: 1 with the gun, 1 taking the tire off, and 1 putting the next tire on. Pit stops can be less than 3 seconds!

Those rigs are powered by - wait for it - nitrogen bottles, which are mounted on pedestal (which is what I noticed for the first time.) 6 bottles in some cases.

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.

Based on the fact that these guys spend tens of millions of dollars every year, I find it interesting that they use simple nitrogen bottles and not air compressors.


F1 rules from 2014 state the following...

With tyres fitted the wheels must be no more than 660mm in diameter (670mm with wet-weather tyres). Measurements are taken with tyres inflated to 1.4 bar. Tyres may only be inflated with AIR or NITROGEN...

F1 teams do use nitrogen...
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.
crackmeup2.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.
crackmeup2.gif



If I understand this correctly, they were using a gas which had a high heat capacity - that is, it absorbed more heat compared to its change in pressure. So the interior of the tire was cooler, making the tire run cooler. It also was reported to have a high conductivity, which means to dragged heat out of the tire, and moved it to the cooler portions of the wheel.

What that did is during portions of the lap where heat was being generated (in the corners), the inflation medium would more readily absorb heat, and during those portions of the lap where heat was not being generated (down the straights), the heat was dissipated more quickly. Hence it was cooling the tire.

Originally Posted By: geeman789
F1 rules from 2014 state the following...

With tyres fitted the wheels must be no more than 660mm in diameter (670mm with wet-weather tyres). Measurements are taken with tyres inflated to 1.4 bar. Tyres may only be inflated with AIR or NITROGEN...

F1 teams do use nitrogen...


Thanks. I hadn't noticed that before. I wonder when that was introduced.

OK, the wayback machine goes back to 2009, where it says F1 also approves CO2, but CO2 is dropped in 2010. However, there are older webpages that talk about F1 tires, but there is no mention of the inflation gas, but it is unclear if there is a regulation in that timeframe.

So I stand corrected about the gas. My information was outdated.
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Since the subject is filling tires with nitrogen:

This past weekend I was viewing videos of the Formula 1 testing in Jerez Spain, and noticed the sophisticated pit set ups. They have a rig that hangs over the pit box - and for those who don't follow F1, they have 3 guys on each wheel: 1 with the gun, 1 taking the tire off, and 1 putting the next tire on. Pit stops can be less than 3 seconds!

Those rigs are powered by - wait for it - nitrogen bottles, which are mounted on pedestal (which is what I noticed for the first time.) 6 bottles in some cases.

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.

Based on the fact that these guys spend tens of millions of dollars every year, I find it interesting that they use simple nitrogen bottles and not air compressors.


F1 rules from 2014 state the following...

With tyres fitted the wheels must be no more than 660mm in diameter (670mm with wet-weather tyres). Measurements are taken with tyres inflated to 1.4 bar. Tyres may only be inflated with AIR or NITROGEN...

F1 teams do use nitrogen...
Of course, air is 78% nitrogen.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
What I find funny about the whole debate is the permeability of tyre is related to the partial pressures of the gasses inside and outside.

30 psi (gauge) tyre, there's about 45 psi inside the tyre, and 15 outside.

On air which means that there's (about)
36 psi of Nitrogen inside the tyre, and 12 psi outside the tyre...24psi difference, and the leakage of Nitrogen is related to that 24psi.
9 psi Oxygen in the tyre, and 3 outside the tyre...6psi difference, and the leakage of oxygen is related to that.

On (pure) Nitrogen, there's about
45 psi of Nitrogen inside the tyre, and 12 psi outside...33psi driving Nitrogen leakage.
And funnily
0psi Oxygen in the tyre, and 3 outside, so the propensity is for oxygen to leak INTO the tyre...

partially negating all your "no oxygen degradation" benefits


For the reasons you stated, I believe that is why most nitrogen generators are at the 95% N2 levels with %5 oxygen, which is beneficial. I just checked the O2 level on some 4 year old OEM tires, that had 14.5% oxygen level in them. Then checked the tires on my trailer that were filled 8 years ago with 95% nitrogen, and after all this time the oxygen level is 4.9%. Humidity checked at 8%. If for no other reason, high water vapor, and oxygen will increase bead seat/valve stem corrosion. Less moisture, or O2 there is less oxidation, or rust, period. I have seen the difference after inflating 1000's of tires with nitrogen in the last 10 years for FREE. And, the tires start to bead leak you just keep adding more, and more water/oxygen back into the tire making it worse. I have seen many corroded wheels with water droplets all over the inside of the wheel.
 
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Originally Posted By: WANG


I'm just gonna leave this here...


That is a great movie!

Maybe they'll knock 50 bucks off that 199 nitrogen - haha!
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789
Exactly...

The dealer adds on a bunch of garbage knowing that 1/2 the people will never pay it... and they won't lose a deal over low cost stuff. They may be a little stubborn, to test you... but they will give in quickly if a deal is slipping away.

But, they know the other 1/2 WILL pay...



A coworker came to work one day very excited about the new car she just bought. She mentioned she got the Scotch Guard and window etching package. She was so excited that her seats will never get dirty, and if her car is stolen the VIN etched on the windows will ID it as her car right away. The coworker thought it was a great deal, and only raised her monthly payment an additional $8. Chump change for the peace of mind, she announced.

An outspoken coworker began to say "how in the world are your seats never going to...the VIN etched on your window is not worth diddly...never mind, congrats on the new car, enjoy it.

That $8 addition to her monthly payment over the 60 month plan she signed up for is highway robbery. 60x8= $480. For Scotch Guard allegedly sprayed onto seating surfaces, and an alleged VIN scratched into her glass. My eyed teared up with sorrow. I think a can of Scotch Guard is less than $10 and you can probably get a few uses out of it. I can't imagine glass etching a VIN would be a $470 dollars affair.

Dealerships selling nitrogen at crazy prices prey on people just like my coworker. They feed on customers emotions during a car purchasing moment; "your precious car will never get dirty, your beloved new car will be recovered immediately if stolen, your gas mileage will almost double, your tires will magically float you over traffic jams..." I'm exaggerating a bit with the last part here, but it does get ridiculous at sketchy dealerships.
 
And those with some common sense, who do a little research, and have a spine NEVER buy any of it...

The glass vin etch is great, you WILL get back at least one window...usually !

But your insurance company will keep it... the proper response to vin etching is " I have insurance, no thank you..."

Caveat Emptor...
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

What is interesting is that it is reported that F1 does NOT use nitrogen as the inflation medium. The reports are that the gas used is a refrigerant which cools the tire.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.
crackmeup2.gif



If I understand this correctly, they were using a gas which had a high heat capacity - that is, it absorbed more heat compared to its change in pressure. So the interior of the tire was cooler, making the tire run cooler. It also was reported to have a high conductivity, which means to dragged heat out of the tire, and moved it to the cooler portions of the wheel.

What that did is during portions of the lap where heat was being generated (in the corners), the inflation medium would more readily absorb heat, and during those portions of the lap where heat was not being generated (down the straights), the heat was dissipated more quickly. Hence it was cooling the tire.


Sounds like something got lost in translation. Consider that modern F1 Carbon brake rotors operate best at between 800 - 1000 degrees Celsius. That is much hotter than the tires could ever possibly get. In your scenario, it would be far more likely that the inflation medium would pull heat from the wheel and transfer it to the tire - exactly the opposite of the desired effect.

Further, gas - any gas - is a poor conductor.

HTH
 
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Sounds like something got lost in translation. Consider that modern F1 Carbon brake rotors operate best at between 800 - 1000 degrees Celsius. That is much hotter than the tires could ever possibly get. In your scenario, it would be far more likely that the inflation medium would pull heat from the wheel and transfer it to the tire - exactly the opposite of the desired effect.

Further, gas - any gas - is a poor conductor.

HTH


Perhaps, but one of the tricks used in racing is to place a layer of stainless steel between the wheel and the brakes (typically, the backing plate to the pad or the mounting plate of the caliper) to slow down heat transfer to the wheel (and therefore, the tire). The fact that the brakes themselves are cooled by air ducts also reduces the amount of heat the tire has to deal with.

Plus, we are talking about small changes that can be added to other small changes that result in a small, but significant, improvement in lap times.
 
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