They found the Musashi!

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Mystic

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Paul Allan, a Microsoft billionaire, reports that he has found the wreckage of the Musashi about 1000 meters down off the Philippines. The Musashi, along with the Yamato, were the two heaviest battleships ever built and carried the biggest guns in naval history. At full load they were about 73,000 tons displacement and carried 460 cm rifles that fired 3200 pound armor piercing shells.


'Huge' WWII Japanese battleship Musashi has been found ...
www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/04/huge-wwii...
The battleship, fabled for its size and power, has been located where it was sunk by U.S. naval forces. ... Microsoft billionaire Paul Allen’s Twitter page.

Sorry, I did not notice the other post about the find.
 
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I'm still awed by the thought of naval guns flinging the equivalent of a current car 20 odd miles give or take.
 
The Yamato Class Japanese battleships could fire 9 such shells in a broadside at the same time. Plus they had secondary guns of about 6 inch and 5 inch in size. The 460 cm shells could travel a maximum distance of about 24 miles (approximately).
 
I just wonder how big the engines were on that thing...it was 900 feet long
shocked2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
I just wonder how big the engines were on that thing...it was 900 feet long
shocked2.gif



I can't find any infor regarding the dimensions of the diesel engines or the steam turbines. The ship had a hybrid drive. This what I found on the Yamato, the sistership, which should have very similar specs:

Propulsion: 12 Kanpon boilers driving 4 turbines (153.553 horsepower / 110 MW), Four 3 bladed propellers 6m in diameter
Speed: 27 knots, 50 km/h
Range: 11.500 km at 16 knots
Consumption: 70 tonnes of fuel oil in hour at maximum speed.
 
Originally Posted By: hotwheels
Originally Posted By: Doog
I just wonder how big the engines were on that thing...it was 900 feet long
shocked2.gif



I can't find any infor regarding the dimensions of the diesel engines or the steam turbines. The ship had a hybrid drive. This what I found on the Yamato, the sistership, which should have very similar specs:

Propulsion: 12 Kanpon boilers driving 4 turbines (153.553 horsepower / 110 MW), Four 3 bladed propellers 6m in diameter
Speed: 27 knots, 50 km/h
Range: 11.500 km at 16 knots
Consumption: 70 tonnes of fuel oil in hour at maximum speed.


Hybrid???

How about standard steam turbine....
 
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3653655/Musashi_found!#Post3653655
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: hotwheels
Originally Posted By: Doog
I just wonder how big the engines were on that thing...it was 900 feet long
shocked2.gif



I can't find any infor regarding the dimensions of the diesel engines or the steam turbines. The ship had a hybrid drive. This what I found on the Yamato, the sistership, which should have very similar specs:

Propulsion: 12 Kanpon boilers driving 4 turbines (153.553 horsepower / 110 MW), Four 3 bladed propellers 6m in diameter
Speed: 27 knots, 50 km/h
Range: 11.500 km at 16 knots
Consumption: 70 tonnes of fuel oil in hour at maximum speed.


Hybrid???

How about standard steam turbine....


The original design called for diesel-steam hybrid engines, but apparently the diesel engines were removed from the design. From wikipedia: the hybrid diesel-turbine propulsion was abandoned in favor of just turbines. The diesels were removed from the design because of problems with the engines aboard the Taigei submarine tender.

hotwheels
 
Originally the Japanese were planning on building fast battleships armed with 16 inch rifles but then they went ahead with the Yamato Class. They probably would have been better off with the fast battleships.

The Yamato Class were a little slow (27 knots) and used a lot of fuel at top speed. And American Iowa Class battleships actually had almost as much firepower. The concussions from the huge rifles being fired could actually kill a human being if they were exposed on deck too close to the rifles while they were being fired. The fastest Japanese aircraft carriers and Japanese destroyers and cruisers could travel 30 knots or more and were too fast for the Yamato Class battleships to keep up with them. So the Japanese Kongo Class battleships usually escorted the carriers.

The Japanese built two Yamato Class battleships and the third one was completed as an aircraft carrier. Originally they had planned 4-5 battleships. They also originally had planned an improved Yamato Class that would have had 20 inch rifles, but only 6 to keep the weight down. The improved Yamato Class were never built. If the Improved Yamato Class had been built and built to carry 9 rifles they would have been about 90,000 tons in displacement.
 
I am thinking about what I would do if I had a billion dollars. Man oh man. Would that not be fun to play with. The money I mean.

Did not mean to hijack the thread but my head got spinning.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Originally the Japanese were planning on building fast battleships armed with 16 inch rifles but then they went ahead with the Yamato Class. They probably would have been better off with the fast battleships.

The Yamato Class were a little slow (27 knots) and used a lot of fuel at top speed. And American Iowa Class battleships actually had almost as much firepower. The concussions from the huge rifles being fired could actually kill a human being if they were exposed on deck too close to the rifles while they were being fired. The fastest Japanese aircraft carriers and Japanese destroyers and cruisers could travel 30 knots or more and were too fast for the Yamato Class battleships to keep up with them. So the Japanese Kongo Class battleships usually escorted the carriers.

The Japanese built two Yamato Class battleships and the third one was completed as an aircraft carrier. Originally they had planned 4-5 battleships. They also originally had planned an improved Yamato Class that would have had 20 inch rifles, but only 6 to keep the weight down. The improved Yamato Class were never built. If the Improved Yamato Class had been built and built to carry 9 rifles they would have been about 90,000 tons in displacement.



Yes, at 36+ knots the Iowa class ships would run circles around the Yamato class. I think on battle, the Iowas would come out ahead. Also shows how far ahead our hull design was.
 
The Iowa Class were not quite that fast. I think their top speed was 33 knots. But they were definitely fast enough to stay with their destroyer-cruiser screens and escort fast aircraft carriers.

The Yamato Class were great ships but they were a little slow and they had two design problems. There was no deck armor in front of the forward turret and no deck armor behind the rear turret, although there was concrete over the aircraft hanger. And they had a serious problem where the belt armor mated with the torpedo protection. The Japanese knew how to fix that but it would have required 3000 tons of steel and the ships would have been slower, heavier, and would have consumed even more fuel. They had massive armor otherwise and the armor on the front of the turrets could not be penetrated by 16 inch American armor piercing shells.

I had a decent outline of history when I graduated from high school and I knew the Japanese in WWII had a powerful navy. But until I came across a book on the Imperial Navy in the college library I had no knowledge of the Yamato Class battleships. The book had been written by a retired American naval officer. Later I came across additional information. It is really strange to me how little many people know about the Japanese Navy in WWII. Just to give an example, many people have heard about the German battleship Bismarck. The Bismarck was a very powerful warship but compared to the Yamato Class battleships it was not much. The Bismarck was smaller than the American Iowa Class battleships and had less powerful rifles. And the American Iowa Class battleships themselves were some 13,000 tons lighter than a Yamato Class battleship.

And then I watched a show on the History Channel and they said that the Japanese had four aircraft carriers in the attack on Pearl Harbor and that the Japanese used Zero fighter planes in the attack. I almost put my head into my arms and cried.

The Japanese used six aircraft carriers in the Pearl Harbor attack. Maybe the attacking aircraft flew from only four of those carriers. I can't remember. But they had six aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers, destroyers, 25 large submarines and 5 midget submarines, plus support ships.

And the Japanese had many types of aircraft. In the Pearl Harbor attack they used Zero fighter planes, torpedo bombers, high level bombers, dive bombers and scout aircraft. They had several other types of aircraft in their military. Near the end of the war they had rocket powered suicide planes that were launched by a Type II twin engine bomber and could fly 600 mph with a heavy explosive warhead.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
The Iowa Class were not quite that fast. I think their top speed was 33 knots. But they were definitely fast enough to stay with their destroyer-cruiser screens and escort fast aircraft carriers.


Yes, you're right. I'm not sure where I was getting 36 knots? I am pretty certain that the published figure of 32.5 knots is a bit conservative- just like with most published figures from our military.
 
You guys seem to be way excited (I mean two topics in a row on the same subject?) Frankly, I had no idea Musashi was missing :)
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Originally the Japanese were planning on building fast battleships armed with 16 inch rifles but then they went ahead with the Yamato Class. They probably would have been better off with the fast battleships.

The Yamato Class were a little slow (27 knots) and used a lot of fuel at top speed. And American Iowa Class battleships actually had almost as much firepower. The concussions from the huge rifles being fired could actually kill a human being if they were exposed on deck too close to the rifles while they were being fired. The fastest Japanese aircraft carriers and Japanese destroyers and cruisers could travel 30 knots or more and were too fast for the Yamato Class battleships to keep up with them. So the Japanese Kongo Class battleships usually escorted the carriers.

The Japanese built two Yamato Class battleships and the third one was completed as an aircraft carrier. Originally they had planned 4-5 battleships. They also originally had planned an improved Yamato Class that would have had 20 inch rifles, but only 6 to keep the weight down. The improved Yamato Class were never built. If the Improved Yamato Class had been built and built to carry 9 rifles they would have been about 90,000 tons in displacement.



Yes, at 36+ knots the Iowa class ships would run circles around the Yamato class. I think on battle, the Iowas would come out ahead. Also shows how far ahead our hull design was.


A very-detailed comparison of battleships on Combinedfleet.com showed that a South Dakota-class BB would actually be a fairly even match for Yamato.
 
I think the Japanese got carried away with the size of those rifles for the Yamato Class battleships. The American Iowa Class were smaller (and faster) but actually had about the same amount of firepower. It would have been terrible if these powerful battleships would have actually engaged each other so it is a good thing it did not happen.

In the end the Yamato Class battleships achieved very little. The most useful battleships the Japanese had in WWII were the oldest, smallest, (and fast) battleships they had-the Kongo Class.

But it is a historical fact that the Japanese built the heaviest, most powerful battleships in history. Those ships also looked awesome. Even today they look pretty modern.

But if the Japanese had never built them it really would not have changed history very much.
 
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Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: Mystic
The Iowa Class were not quite that fast. I think their top speed was 33 knots. But they were definitely fast enough to stay with their destroyer-cruiser screens and escort fast aircraft carriers.


Yes, you're right. I'm not sure where I was getting 36 knots? I am pretty certain that the published figure of 32.5 knots is a bit conservative- just like with most published figures from our military.


I have often wondered what the top speed is for some of these ships. But the top speed is classified so we may never know. Even with the WWII Iowa Class battleships they said 33+ knots. We do know they were fast enough to escort fast aircraft carriers and able to keep up with destroyers and cruisers. And they could turn inside destroyer-cruiser screens.

The Japanese had a destroyer in WWII that was something like 3000-4000 tons (a lot for WWII) and could go something like 40 knots. But it was expensive to build and they built only one destroyer of that class. It did not have radar as good as Allied ships but otherwise it was probably the best destroyer in the world.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think the Japanese got carried away with the size of those rifles for the Yamato Class battleships. The American Iowa Class were smaller (and faster) but actually had about the same amount of firepower. It would have been terrible if these powerful battleships would have actually engaged each other so it is a good thing it did not happen.


Actually...in the right conditions, you could make a pretty good argument that Iowa could blast Yamato to a wreck, and not take any damage. By mid-1943, American fire control was THAT superior...all American capital ships could shoot blind, in bad weather, in heavy seas, while maneuvering at high speed.

Quote:
In the end the Yamato Class battleships achieved very little. The most useful battleships the Japanese had in WWII were the oldest, smallest, (and fast) battleships they had-the Kongo Class.


They technically weren't even battleships...though the Japanese called them that, the Kongo-class ships were actually battleCRUISERS. (They were British-designed, Kongo actually British-built, sisters to the Tiger-class.)

Quote:
But it is a historical fact that the Japanese built the heaviest, most powerful battleships in history. Those ships also looked awesome. Even today they look pretty modern.


Not really. The Iowas were just as powerful...and honestly, the South Dakota, matched the Yamato pretty well, despite Yamato being half again the displacement. The Yamato-class was, in pretty much all respects, a brute-force approach: her armor wasn't the best quality, but there was LOTS of it. Her guns weren't the most efficient design (amazingly, the 15" guns on French Richelieu actually matched the range of Yamato's 18.1" rifles)...but they were gigantic. (She was also a fuel hog of epic proportions, which is why she so rarely sortied.)

In contrast, South Dakota might be, pound for pound, the best-protected warship EVER built. Her armor isn't as heavy as Yamato, but it's better...and the ship is designed to maximize its effectiveness. SoDak uses things like a very-compact engineering plant (which means you need to armor a smaller area), interior bulkheads made of tough armor-plate (rather than the more common mild steel), and a thin shell plate mounted OUTSIDE her armor belt...it won't stop even a 5: round, but it will give JUST enough resistance to take the armor-piercing nose cap off a large-caliber shell. The effectiveness was demonstrated off Guadalcanal: at close range, a 14" round hit South Dakota. It didn't just deflect...upon hitting this "layered" armor, it SHATTERED!

Also: for fighting capital ships, American battleships were supposed to reduce powder charges. This seemingly-insane doctrine was used because a plunging shell (aided by gravity) will often do more damage than trying to get a shell through a 14+" armor belt...the reduced charge means that, for a given range, the shell needs to be launched HIGHER.
 
These are a lot of good points. Deck armor is usually much thinner than the hull armor. The British might have had better success against the Bismarck if they had tried to fire the shells in such a way that the shells would have plunged into the deck armor.

In addition, the USA was able to obtain and could afford better quality steel than what the Japanese had.

I just now came across a video linked to the Tully website and the Musashi wreckage is actually in pretty bad shape. The bow is in pretty good shape (although a lot of torpedo holes of course) but they think right now that the stern of the ship imploded because of air being trapped in that part of the ship and sea pressure crushing the hull, like what happened to the stern of the Titanic. There are exposed boilers and so forth. A hill of wreckage. It is possible also that secondary ammunition exploded but right now they are thinking sea pressure crushed much of the stern and central part of the ship because of air being trapped inside.

Here is a link for anybody interested:



http://www.paulallen.com/Interests/Exploration/Key-Initiatives/Musashi-Expedition
 
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think the Japanese got carried away with the size of those rifles for the Yamato Class battleships. The American Iowa Class were smaller (and faster) but actually had about the same amount of firepower. It would have been terrible if these powerful battleships would have actually engaged each other so it is a good thing it did not happen.


Actually...in the right conditions, you could make a pretty good argument that Iowa could blast Yamato to a wreck, and not take any damage. By mid-1943, American fire control was THAT superior...all American capital ships could shoot blind, in bad weather, in heavy seas, while maneuvering at high speed.

Quote:
In the end the Yamato Class battleships achieved very little. The most useful battleships the Japanese had in WWII were the oldest, smallest, (and fast) battleships they had-the Kongo Class.


They technically weren't even battleships...though the Japanese called them that, the Kongo-class ships were actually battleCRUISERS. (They were British-designed, Kongo actually British-built, sisters to the Tiger-class.)

Quote:
But it is a historical fact that the Japanese built the heaviest, most powerful battleships in history. Those ships also looked awesome. Even today they look pretty modern.


Not really. The Iowas were just as powerful...and honestly, the South Dakota, matched the Yamato pretty well, despite Yamato being half again the displacement. The Yamato-class was, in pretty much all respects, a brute-force approach: her armor wasn't the best quality, but there was LOTS of it. Her guns weren't the most efficient design (amazingly, the 15" guns on French Richelieu actually matched the range of Yamato's 18.1" rifles)...but they were gigantic. (She was also a fuel hog of epic proportions, which is why she so rarely sortied.)

In contrast, South Dakota might be, pound for pound, the best-protected warship EVER built. Her armor isn't as heavy as Yamato, but it's better...and the ship is designed to maximize its effectiveness. SoDak uses things like a very-compact engineering plant (which means you need to armor a smaller area), interior bulkheads made of tough armor-plate (rather than the more common mild steel), and a thin shell plate mounted OUTSIDE her armor belt...it won't stop even a 5: round, but it will give JUST enough resistance to take the armor-piercing nose cap off a large-caliber shell. The effectiveness was demonstrated off Guadalcanal: at close range, a 14" round hit South Dakota. It didn't just deflect...upon hitting this "layered" armor, it SHATTERED!

Also: for fighting capital ships, American battleships were supposed to reduce powder charges. This seemingly-insane doctrine was used because a plunging shell (aided by gravity) will often do more damage than trying to get a shell through a 14+" armor belt...the reduced charge means that, for a given range, the shell needs to be launched HIGHER.



That's some pretty interesting info! can you cite any links or other sources, I'd like to read up on it.
 
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