Flow versus filtration - where's the balance?

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I have a 2004 Toyota Tacoma with the 2RZ-FE, 2.4 L motor with 157,000 miles and I currently run 5W-30, Mobil 1 EP. I just switched from conventional to synthetic about 1 month ago and my truck runs great.

As a general rule of thumb, I'm one of the those people that believes it's best to stick with an OEM filter, which is what is currently installed on my truck. However, I must admit that I'm considering switching to a Fram Ultra because I see so many of you really think it's a great product and, from a specifications perspective, it does sound like a good filter. I like it's very high filtration efficiency.

Although I like the Fram efficiency, I also believe that the engineers at Toyota are capable of making a filter that could have the same efficiency, so I'm wondering why they didn't? In other words, I'm wondering if the folks at Toyota that engineered the motor and the filters created a filter that may not have the absolute best filtration characteristics, but that didn't concern them - the engineers were willing to sacrifice some filtration ability for better flow characteristics? Maybe they felt the flow of the oil was more important than getting every little speck of contaminant?

I'm sure some engineer(s) could create a filter that has 100% efficiency, but it's ability to flow oil would be awful so you'd wear out your motor in short order due to oil starvation!

smile.gif


So for those of you who are big fans of the Fram Ultra, how do you feel about it's ability to flow oil versus a Toyota OEM or any other OEM for that matter? I guessing it surely doesn't flow oil as well?...and does that concern you?

Thank you for your feedback!

Ed
 
I was of the same mindset as you when I joined, and I only ran Honda OEM filters in my Accord. You are correct that the engineers know what they are doing when they design the filter, however the great thing about the Fram Ultra is, even though it has great filtration, because it is synthetic media it also allows it to have better flow. That is the only other filter I have used in my Accord besides the OEM filter and they have been great. Honestly I would use one with confidence if I were you.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I was of the same mindset as you when I joined, and I only ran Honda OEM filters in my Accord. You are correct that the engineers know what they are doing when they design the filter, however the great thing about the Fram Ultra is, even though it has great filtration, because it is synthetic media it also allows it to have better flow. That is the only other filter I have used in my Accord besides the OEM filter and they have been great. Honestly I would use one with confidence if I were you.


Thank you for the feedback! As a matter of curiosity, is there any way to confidently know that the flow is as good, or hopefully better, than the OEM?

Ed
 
I agree. Filters with fully synthetic media have the ability to filter smaller particles while having less pressure drop than cellulosic media filters.

But if it came down to having to choose between a filter with finer filtration versus a filter with lower pressure drop, I'd go with finer filtration.
 
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I was of the same mindset as you when I joined, and I only ran Honda OEM filters in my Accord. You are correct that the engineers know what they are doing when they design the filter, however the great thing about the Fram Ultra is, even though it has great filtration, because it is synthetic media it also allows it to have better flow. That is the only other filter I have used in my Accord besides the OEM filter and they have been great. Honestly I would use one with confidence if I were you.


Thank you for the feedback! As a matter of curiosity, is there any way to confidently know that the flow is as good, or hopefully better, than the OEM?

Ed
You could PM Motorking, he is a member on here and is high-up in the Fram Corporation. I have seen the flow information on the Ultra before, I dont remember what it was but it was more flow than your car will need.
 
Your truck wont know the difference either way.

If you can buy Toyota OEM's for less than aftermarket, i say go for it.

Of course, the BITOG way is to window shop AAP, Oreilly, Pep Boys, AZ, Napa etc. and try to find an oil w/ filter special that would be cheaper than what you normally buy.

(I'd use whatever is cheapest.)
 
I guess the main question we have to ask is, why do we want/need finer filtration?

Remember that in a classical sense, a filter media (which is really what is being rated here) doesnt do the filtration - it is the cake that forms on the media.

I think we have seen enough cut open filters to recognize that there isnt practically a cake build up of particles on any oil filter. So, in essence, the filter is primarily serving as an intermediate to pick up the big rocks.

Now, the other side of the coin is how big or small do we need to filter? In diesels, bypas filtration is used to remove dispersed soot, since it gets loaded into the oil and is one of the primary condemnation factors for diesel engines. Is soot a condemnation factor for gas engines? Even if it were, we know from plenty of data on passenger diesels that the engines dont get near their soot condemnation levels typically.

So, what's the concern? The concern can be that in a bearing, there is only the thinnest layer of oil in there, at pressure. Its a hydrodynamic wedge, and its thickness is dictated by the smoothness of the bearing surfaces and the loading on the bearing (and the pressure/viscosity/flow of the oil). The spacing need only be as large as to prevent the surfaces from rubbing (boundary lubrication), i.e. you want to maintain the wedge of film in there. But what if a particle is in the oil? What if the particle is big enough that it can contact the bearing surface(s) during operation at the design hydrodynamic regime? Well, that's an issue.

So the question for optimizing filtration is, just how fine does the filtration need to be? Too fine and youre paying for pumping and pressure losses that dont do anyone favors. Too coarse and you can have large particles that could score surfaces. Filtering too fine where the regime isnt practical doesnt do anything for anyone.

But... Technology advances... So now we have synthetic media which can flow better at finer particle capture sizes. Does that mean it is what we want? Not necessarily. A cake made of finer particles is going to flow slower and induce more pressure drop, so just because the media can flow better in its virgin state doesnt mean that the cake will ultimately flow better.

Which comes back to filtration - do we typically build a particle cake? Will we once we move to finer filtration? These may be moot points if we never filter enough particles to induce a practical pressure drop growth. But if we do, there can be a real issue, and its manifested worse by the viscosity changes from very cold start through operation.

IMO the engineers knew what their bearing clearance and filtration needs were during design, and specified filters that would collect the appropriate size particles. Newer filters could if designed appropriately, collect the same particles with better flow. That would be great. But smaller particles with the same flow is another way to skin the cat. Which is better???? Well I suppose there is only so much flow that can go through the tight spaces where the hydrodynamic wedge exists. So long as the flow requirements and pressure requirements are met, youre not going to do much better.

So the best filter is one that flows the best, while meeting filtration particle size requirements, and can handle cold start operations with minimal bypass. I suspect that none is truly optimized to these, so everything is a trade. Given the push to ever thinner oils and lower startup viscosity, Id say that the benefit of synthetic media is good, and so a filter with synthetic media that is not too restrictive or too fine filtering would be the best bet.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Remember that in a classical sense, a filter media (which is really what is being rated here) doesnt do the filtration - it is the cake that forms on the media.

I think we have seen enough cut open filters to recognize that there isnt practically a cake build up of particles on any oil filter. So, in essence, the filter is primarily serving as an intermediate to pick up the big rocks.

You're assuming that oil filters use surface loading (filter cake) vs depth loading (tangled web of innards) without showing any references from manufacturers showing they use one vs the other.
 
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I have a 2004 Toyota Tacoma with the 2RZ-FE, 2.4 L motor with 157,000 miles and I currently run 5W-30, Mobil 1 EP. I just switched from conventional to synthetic about 1 month ago and my truck runs great.

As a general rule of thumb, I'm one of the those people that believes it's best to stick with an OEM filter, which is what is currently installed on my truck. However, I must admit that I'm considering switching to a Fram Ultra because I see so many of you really think it's a great product and, from a specifications perspective, it does sound like a good filter. I like it's very high filtration efficiency.

Although I like the Fram efficiency, I also believe that the engineers at Toyota are capable of making a filter that could have the same efficiency, so I'm wondering why they didn't? In other words, I'm wondering if the folks at Toyota that engineered the motor and the filters created a filter that may not have the absolute best filtration characteristics, but that didn't concern them - the engineers were willing to sacrifice some filtration ability for better flow characteristics? Maybe they felt the flow of the oil was more important than getting every little speck of contaminant?

I'm sure some engineer(s) could create a filter that has 100% efficiency, but it's ability to flow oil would be awful so you'd wear out your motor in short order due to oil starvation!

smile.gif


So for those of you who are big fans of the Fram Ultra, how do you feel about it's ability to flow oil versus a Toyota OEM or any other OEM for that matter? I guessing it surely doesn't flow oil as well?...and does that concern you?

Thank you for your feedback!

Ed
Auto engineers do not design filters, they issue a set of specifications to filter companies for the filter they want for a particular engine. One of the filter products is then chosen as the "OEM". Controls on what else is alleged to "meet OEM" are, shall we say, lacking. If a particular company says their filter crosses with an OEM, it might or might not do anything more than fit the mount. It WOULD be nice to have the actual filter specs from the car maker on hand to compare with other filters which are claimed to cross. Sometimes an inference can be made from the filter chosen as OEM, but those specs can require a lot of digging. When was the last time a car maker stated for public consumption that a particular filter from a particular company which was claimed to be a cross was NOT acceptable?
 
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Toyota tends to be very conservative, what worked well before, works now. The OE still uses a nitrile adbv, unless it is black color silicone. Because the nitrile works and has not been a problem. The Denso first time fit is available from Rock Auto very cheaply, about $3, has upgraded features to the OE, maybe even a different media. But the ultra is also available for like $5 if shop around, and made in USA. Not sure if anyone really knows what flows best or ultimately filters the oil best under modern car usage with clean running engines and good air filters. I don't buy the cake on media theory. My filters never have any "cake" on them, and I want that. If a filter is caked with dirt, the bypass is being used more or all the time. Not for me.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Your truck wont know the difference either way.

If you can buy Toyota OEM's for less than aftermarket, i say go for it.

Of course, the BITOG way is to window shop AAP, Oreilly, Pep Boys, AZ, Napa etc. and try to find an oil w/ filter special that would be cheaper than what you normally buy.

(I'd use whatever is cheapest.)


For me...cost is not an issue. By that I mean that I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I just feel so strongly in the importance of a quality filter that I'd probably pay $50 for an oil filter if I was convinced that it would be radically better for the longevity of my motor.

smile.gif


Ed
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I was of the same mindset as you when I joined, and I only ran Honda OEM filters in my Accord. You are correct that the engineers know what they are doing when they design the filter, however the great thing about the Fram Ultra is, even though it has great filtration, because it is synthetic media it also allows it to have better flow. That is the only other filter I have used in my Accord besides the OEM filter and they have been great. Honestly I would use one with confidence if I were you.


Thank you for the feedback! As a matter of curiosity, is there any way to confidently know that the flow is as good, or hopefully better, than the OEM?

Ed
You could PM Motorking, he is a member on here and is high-up in the Fram Corporation. I have seen the flow information on the Ultra before, I dont remember what it was but it was more flow than your car will need.


I don't know how to find someone (like MotorKing) - how do you do that for my reference???

Thank you,
Ed
 
When it comes to oil filters, its been proven time and again that "OEM" means absolutely nothing. The Denso that comes on a Toyota from the factory is not necessarily made on the same continent or by the same company as a Denso branded filter you get in the Toyota parts department. OEM suppliers are whoever meets the spec and offers the lowest bid, and it can change year to year and often there's a different supply stream to the assembly plant than to the dealer parts departments. That's also been true of other OEM brands in the past, Mopar filters have been made by multiple vendors for example as were AC-Delco filters. Motorcraft has been pretty consistent, but there's never any guarantee.

Aftermarket filters are usually much more of a known quantity. Especially on here where people are constantly evaluating used ones and find any disturbing trends (like torn media in Purolator Classics recently) that you need to avoid. "Known Quantity" can mean both "known to be risky" (Fram orange can, Purolator Classics from the last few years, etc.) to "known to be good" (most any synthetic-media filter except, oddly, Wix which has a low efficiency rating compared to the others).

The Fram Ultra is a superb filter. Synthetic media filters (Ultra, Puorlator Synthetic, Royal Purple, Amsoil EAO, etc.) have the advantage of both high efficiency and high flow, in no small part due to the fact that they are screen-wire backed which holds the media in a shape such that no folds bind closed under the pressure of flow. The media is also thicker and doesn't just act at its surface, it traps contaminants through the whole thickness so its effective working volume is larger per unit surface area than standard filters.

Just my take, but I would use an Ultra over a Toyota "OEM" filter any day.
 
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I, like the OP, have wondered why some oems spec a mid-range filter , when they could spec anything they want...

Efficiency ratings seem to be more a marketing tool than anything else... 99 % efficient sounds great, but does it really matter...?

Many a Honda or Toyota has lived a long happy life using only those "poor..." efficiency oem oil filters...
 
Intriguing question. To me, the best filter is the one that, if I take an oil sample at say 5000 miles, has the lowest particle count in the particle size range of interest. So first off, you need to understand the particle size range that could cause damage. Then you need to understand how often the oil needs to be pumped thru the filter to minimize these particles. All of this is not a trivial test as we have a lot of unknowns here. I honestly do not believe you can pose a question like this on BITOG and get an accurate answer. You’ll get a lot of opinions but TBH, this is both an engineering problem that would require inside knowledge of the engine design as well as an expert in filtration. You would also need to know how quickly these damaging particles are being created, to understand how often the oil needs to be filtered.
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789

I, like the OP, have wondered why some oems spec a mid-range filter , when they could spec anything they want...

Efficiency ratings seem to be more a marketing tool than anything else... 99 % efficient sounds great, but does it really matter...?

Many a Honda or Toyota has lived a long happy life using only those "poor..." efficiency oem oil filters...


Saving a few pennies per filter saves a big carmaker a LOT more money than it does an individual owner. Its in the carmaker's interest to save the pennies, provided it doesn't grossly increase failure rate. If they spent a few dollars extra on every vehicle they built for the ultimate oil filter, it would add up to a LARGE pile of money every year. But if they opt for a "good enough" filter and only incur a handful of warranty claims as a result, they come out ahead. And remember, they don't care once the warranty is up.

As an individual owner, your statistical analysis should be different. Your risk of a filter failure occurring is no different than the manufacturer's risk of it occurring on your vehicle. However, the consequence of a failure (especially once the vehicle is out of warranty) is potentially much more damaging to you. So an individual owner's best option is to spend a few hundred dollars more (over the entire life of the car) on better service components to reduce the very costly risk of replacing an engine. If the engine never fails, you're only out a few hundred bucks over a number of years and you can say "oh well, I coulda played a round of golf for that." So its really not much of a down-side to go ahead and engage in some overkill.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
When it comes to oil filters, its been proven time and again that "OEM" means absolutely nothing. The Denso that comes on a Toyota from the factory is not necessarily made on the same continent or by the same company as a Denso branded filter you get in the Toyota parts department. OEM suppliers are whoever meets the spec and offers the lowest bid, and it can change year to year and often there's a different supply stream to the assembly plant than to the dealer parts departments. That's also been true of other OEM brands in the past, Mopar filters have been made by multiple vendors for example as were AC-Delco filters. Motorcraft has been pretty consistent, but there's never any guarantee.

Aftermarket filters are usually much more of a known quantity. Especially on here where people are constantly evaluating used ones and find any disturbing trends (like torn media in Purolator Classics recently) that you need to avoid. "Known Quantity" can mean both "known to be risky" (Fram orange can, Purolator Classics from the last few years, etc.) to "known to be good" (most any synthetic-media filter except, oddly, Wix which has a low efficiency rating compared to the others).

The Fram Ultra is a superb filter. Synthetic media filters (Ultra, Puorlator Synthetic, Royal Purple, Amsoil EAO, etc.) have the advantage of both high efficiency and high flow, in no small part due to the fact that they are screen-wire backed which holds the media in a shape such that no folds bind closed under the pressure of flow. The media is also thicker and doesn't just act at its surface, it traps contaminants through the whole thickness so its effective working volume is larger per unit surface area than standard filters.

Just my take, but I would use an Ultra over a Toyota "OEM" filter any day.


There are some instances I would agree with you, but my experience with both Japanese and European cars that I've owned makes me very cautiously considering my oil filter. In my experience, many aftermarket parts just do not fit properly and your vehicle leaks, squeaks, groans or otherwise runs like excrement. Conversely, if you use OEM parts, you can be confident that your vehicle will run just as the factory designed it to!

My concern has also been verified by one of my Brother-In-Laws who has managed Napa parts stores as well as both parts departments for Nissan and Ford.

Ed
 
I agree with you, but I still find myself going back and forth from Toyota OEM to Fram Ultra....
BITOG caused this to me......
 
Originally Posted By: Bebop367
I agree with you, but I still find myself going back and forth from Toyota OEM to Fram Ultra....
BITOG caused this to me......


get some therapy....
 
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