Battery terminal recommendations?

[NYSteve]

Originally Posted By: joel96
Gokhan, that pic is for Toyota vehicles. Everyone else recommending OEM parts, great, but I need a link to the OEM part; Hyundai hasn't documented their parts specs well; most of the sites I'm finding list the part and no other information about it.

I like the idea of a company specifically geared towards electrical wiring for vehicles. I need to know exactly what I'm supposed to use for the '03 Accent: the cable length, guage (Advance Auto Parts displays 4 AWG as compatible), diameter of lug rings, and which cables are included. I'm probably going to buy the terminal clamps seperately in order to pick higher quality ones (GenuinedealZ has some for 3/8" lug rings--the same ones are available on Amazon; they're brass wing nuts, unknown bolt composition, unknown terminal composition with expoxy coating); that will help when the clamps fail before the cable does; I need to know the diameter of the terminal clamps (or the diameter of the battery posts) and the diameter of the bolts . The failed clamp is on the negative cable. If I'm ordering custom cables, I'm going to need to find out about whether or not those little ground wires are going to need to be spliced in with the rest of the cable on the negative one. It appears that positive cables have to have those ground cables; positive cables have two lugs on them; this mean I need two cables for the positive cable?

Anyone have a good reason not to go with heavy wall versus standard lugs?

A 3' 4AWG with heavy wall tinned copper 3/8" lugs with heat shrink would be $8.17 from GenuinedealZ; that's well within budget. I can re-use the automotive tubing from the old cables to keep it protected from friction wear. The positive cables are a different story, since the terminal and cable setup looks more complicated; I still don't understand what the requirements are supposed to be for the ground cables, where they're attached, guage, length, etc.


Check http://custombatterycables.com/ if you have a aux cable coming off of one of the main cables. They look like they can do this.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
3721525000 is the OEM Hyundai part number. $55 discounted online.

$47.35 in the link I posted above that has the graphic parts database.

 

[joel96]

I think 37215-25000 is the part the '03 Accent uses. It's $47. I can do better than their flimsy cables for less; just need to know the specs. I want to figure out the max surge Amps the cables will handle. The EverStart battery is rated for 600 CCA; I can guess the length and get the guage from that calculation. The aux cables are what is going to be tricky and the biggest unknown atm; I wish they hadn't merged a positive, a negative, a ground on each positive and negative (not shown in the pic, but present in the car I own), and two aux cables into one wrapped cable. I'd rather not go with any aux-style terminals; the one I have now is what is rusty and loose--it is causing the failure. I could strip the wire and add a new negative terminal; easiest fix, wouldn't mess with the cables any more than that; wouldn't fix the oxidization on the other cables though. It's not the battery posts that have worn out (the battery is from August 2014), I'm staying away from shims.
http://www.hyundai-forums.com/lc-2000-20...tml#post3150321
I'm going with Permatex 80370 to prevent corrosion no matter what cables I go with. Probably does the same thing as dielectric grease.
Anyone know if marine posts are the same diameter as automotive posts?

 

[Gokhan]

I don't think $47.35 is expensive for a 7-headed combined plus & minus battery cable. If it was a Toyota, the same thing would probably sell for $200. It's really not worth the time trying to make or repair such a complicated cable.

It's surprising that yours has failed. I would normally suspect abuse, improper installation, or tampering when a battery cable fails.

 

[SHOZ]

If you have corrosion it is because the battery is leaking. It probably had the terminals torqued when trying to tighten the cable terminal.

 

[joel96]

The battery currently installed isn't leaking. Maybe the previous one was before I bought the car, but that battery was replaced even if that's the case. It's more likely it's the time factor--twelve years without a replacement is more than long enough for rust to start. The car is rusty in many different spots. Even if the cable is fine, I still don't like using the OEM terminals. Anyone know if marine battery terminals will fit on automotive posts? I could skip the whole new cable idea or buy a new cable and immediately replace the terminals with the heavier duty marine ones. How much would it cost for a dealer to install an online-bought OEM cable?

 

[joel96]

How about buying a used '03 Accent cable from a junkyard, dissecting it (or swapping it for the one in the Accent right now), and then replicating it by giving the specs to the custom third-party manufacturers?

 

[SHOZ]

If getting a new cable it would be better to run it from the battery ground post to the engine block. Then a cable from the engine block to the body, but there probably already is one of these.

Asian cars tend to ground to the body primarily then engine secondarily. This is good until the body starts to rust and resistance builds up.

The electricity being produced is from the alternator so that is where the best ground should be going to.

 

[joel96]

@SHOZ, there's a ground on the negative and a ground on the positive that connect to the body, and a ground on the aux cable on the positive cable. Where on the engine block would the negative ground be connected (if it is negative grounding you're referring to)?
The cable installed currently looks different from the one on this site; there's a wire near the left side of the car next to the battery that connects to the negative cable; it has a proprietary connector; I think it might go to the fuse box. The small 3-pin aux cables with Molex ends would be difficult, but doable; not knowing what the proprietary cable is might be a deal breaker in building a custom cable. I guess I could make a new cable and connect the old proprietary parts somehow; without having an old cable to dissect or knowing what that part is and how to get a new connector and cable it's way too risky to assume I could do it myself and that it would be compatible with the non-battery wiring. I might take a picture and post it to make sure everyone knows what connector I'm referring to.
The Hyundai Parts Zone site doesn't list the lug ring bolts for every one of the positive lug ring grounds; I'm going to assume they're all the same part number: 11415-06167-B. I think it will be a good idea to replace the bolts while the cable is getting replaced; that should keep the resistance low.
http://www.hyundaipartszone.com/Page_Product/PartsList.aspx?Vin=&Make=Hyundai&Model=Accent&Year=2003&SubModel=&CatalogueCode=HMA250PA00&Conditions=01%3dF%3b02%3dS%3b03%3dR%3b04%3d6%3b05%3dB%3bDT%3dL&BuildDate=&NoDescAtt=&InteriorColour=&ExteriorColour=&Major=EN&MapDataIndexID=3937111
Still wondering how to determine the requirements for the main cables--how does one determine the maximum Amp surge draw? If I know what that is (and measure the length of each cable segment), I can use that one guy's tutorial to calculate what the gauge should be.
CustomBatteryCables recommends 2 AWG (6.544mm) for 4-cylinder engines and smaller. I'd like to know the draw anyway rather than going off of someone else's project conclusions.
http://www.custombatterycables.com/what_size_cable_do_you_need.htm
That doesn't include the six other cables attached to the main two cables or explain how they're connected to the two main cables.
For now, the working plan (plan A) is to tighten the rusted negative terminal and forget the whole replacement. Plan B is to cut off the negative terminal, strip and sand the bare copper, cold crimp a thin wall lug ring onto the cable ($5.99 for two thin wall lug rings; $1.82 per each for heavy wall)(I think for heavy wall, they require soldering, but I might have to buy a hot air soldering station) and replace the terminal with an epoxy coated marine terminal ($7.25).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00030CY5Q/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Wall-Coppe...y-/380957309836
http://www.amazon.com/EPOXE-COATED-WING-...+epoxy+terminal
Plan C is to buy an OEM cable from HyundaiPartsZone, along with a bunch of bolts. I don't think it would be too hard to do the replacement myself and forgo the dealer installation.
Plan D is to modify the new OEM cable with third-party soldered heavy wall lug rings and epoxy marine terminals.
Plan E is to forget doing anything myself and let the dealer buy the cable, bolts, and install all of them.
Plan F is to buy a junk cable and dissect it, build a cable from scratch based on those specs (probably going to dissect the old cable if I buy an OEM one anyway).
Thanks for all of your helpful replies SHOZ and everyone!

 

[SHOZ]

The ground will not go to the fuse box. The positive will or the cable coming from the alternator output.

You are making this way too hard. For a ground cable get some #4 wire and go from the engine block to the battery negative.

For pos it usually goes to the starter and maybe the fuse box. Sometimes the fuse box is piggy backed from the starter, sometimes from the alternator.

 

[joel96]

Thanks SHOZ. Without disassembling the cable, I don't think I can tell whether the fuse box is connected to alternator or to the starter. There's two aux ends (it's possible that the two aux ends are the two ends of a separate cable and not connected to the main cables at all; merged for reducing cable clutter) and that one proprietary (still going to be a sticking point, and might mean invalidation of any custom cable plans); could be going to both the starter and the alternator.

I executed plan A today; I'm going to wait and see how it does tomorrow. I noticed that the battery bracket and bolt are absent--probably why the negative connector keeps loosening; the battery can slide around fairly easily without that bracket holding it place. The bolt hole appeared to be filled in with dirt; I'm hoping that there is a bolt hole there, otherwise keeping the battery stationary is going to be difficult. I think I should buy a replacement bolt and bracket to keep the battery stationary regardless of cable management (I'll call this Plan G).
The bracket is 37160-22000, bolt is 11290-08306-B, nut is 37256-31100; $4.12 for the three parts, S&H not included.

 

[SHOZ]

For the pos cable you need four points of contact. The Pos post on the battery, the starter, the alternator and the fuse box.

The alternator cable will have the big fuse inline with it. The rest can be direct cables.

Really doesn't matter how they are wired as long as they all have continuity with each other. Just minimize the length.

 

[joel96]

This is a pic of the battery tray where the bracket should be:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5zIz1YSh_e7U0xZMENVT3FtbW8/view?usp=sharing
The hole in the tray is above the white car body, and in the center of the hole there is a rusted cylinder; I think the cylinder is probably the bolt, and the bolt head broke off at some point before I bought it. That means there is a nut below the body--I couldn't figure out how to get into the area below the body; it's not accessible from the wheel well or from beneath the engine compartment from what I can tell. I guess that cylinder might be nothing, and the nut might be able to go between the body and the tray. I haven't seen service or repair manuals that say whether the nut goes under the tray or under the body.
This is the proprietary connector I mentioned in my previous post:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5zIz1YSh_e7TXFuRnIyc0dQWjg/view?usp=sharing
When I connected the negative cable and disconnected the proprietary connector, the engine wouldn't try to turn over. I'm guessing that goes to the starter motor. It's attached to the tray by plastic clips (you can remove it with some tweezers probably). Based on SHOZ' description of an inline fuse, it might be the alternator cable (but it's too far from the alternator to make sense and is attached to the negative cable, not the positive cable. If it's an alternator cable or starter cable, might not be proprietary connector.
I found this loose connector while I was underneath the engine compartment:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5zIz1YSh_e7dHNuVFFXT1gzRlU/view?usp=sharing
It's not connected to anything. I thought it might go to the turn signal; maybe they replaced it and didn't want to cut the cable. Anyone know what it goes to?

 

[joel96]

Plan A mostly failed. Tightening the terminal connector allowed a start, but the same symptoms of incomplete contact continued--the radio cuts out intermittently, and the CD player cycles non-stop when driving. I'm going to have to go with plan B or C (new terminals or buy an OEM cable). Either way, it's a temporary fix because of the missing bracket--no matter which cable I go with, eventually the vibrations or sliding of the battery will loosen the terminal connector. I need to know how to attach the bracket before I start throwing money at it.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: joel96
The EverStart battery is rated for 600 CCA; I can guess the length and get the guage from that calculation.


Just because the source impedance allows 600A, does the load impedance allow that much to flow? What is the rating of the starter?

600A * 10V = 6000W = 6kW

Even my 3.0L diesel only has a 1.7kW rated starter.

Lower impedance and better cables do mean less voltage drop which means less current, but you do need to consider the actual starting current. I doubt its anywhere near 600A.

Id go for more grounds, but you dont necessarily need an excessively heavy cable rated to the battery CCA, IMO.

 

[SHOZ]

I would guess the current is around 50A for the starter. My Gen Coupe is 45A and the Accent is a little lower.

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: joel96
Plan A mostly failed. Tightening the terminal connector allowed a start, but the same symptoms of incomplete contact continued--the radio cuts out intermittently, and the CD player cycles non-stop when driving. I'm going to have to go with plan B or C (new terminals or buy an OEM cable). Either way, it's a temporary fix because of the missing bracket--no matter which cable I go with, eventually the vibrations or sliding of the battery will loosen the terminal connector. I need to know how to attach the bracket before I start throwing money at it.
Couple of shiny bend pennies and you will be back in the business! Or a c-clamp or a locking plier! Of course that is a redneck repair. Get the new clamp.

 

[andyd]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Shim the loose terminal with a bent penny and maybe a new pinch bolt.


They make lead shims just for this purpose:

Battery posts are lead. Most ring terminals are tinned copper. A battery that leaks around the posts but is otherwise good can be helped by the washers. I make my own from carpet under layment. I soak them in oil. This eliminates corrosion. Connections should be clean and tight. Grease of any sort can be used to coat the terminals and exposed wire ends. Those lead shims are cool, I just squeeze the terminal a bit with pliers.

 

[joel96]

@JHZR2 and @SHOZ:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/shop_years/hyundai-accent-starter-2003.html
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st_review-rank?keywords=starter&vehicle=2003-3-24-20--5-8-5-5370-78-1-1-207--1-0&qid=1426362959&rh=n%3A15684181%2Cn%3A15719731%2Cn%3A193805011%2Cn%3A15731351%2Cn%3A15731421%2Ck%3Astarter&sort=review-rank
Based on the above results, the power output rating on the OEM starter is 0.9kW. Some compatible starters are listed at 1.0kW. I don't plan on replacing the starter or the battery--it's the connection that is failing (and maybe the rust on the ground cables and ground lug rings is reducing ground effectiveness); it might be a good idea to base the cables on potential replacement starter motors. I don't know how to pick a compatible starter; I'd go with whatever would fit in the compartment and would be the most reliable in -10 F weather (the higher the power, the better). For now, I'll stick with 1.0kW as the maximum power output basis for the cables. The engine is 12V. Given the OEM starter rating of 900kW, does this mean the Amps from the battery are ~75A (with up to 83A with a 1kW starter)?
How do you measure load impedance? Is there a device I need to get to measure it (e.g. AC conductance tester, etc.), or can I get that from part specifications?
What do you mean "more grounds"? Wouldn't that mean drilling holes for lug ring bolts?

@Vikas: No way; that's going to create a high resistance point and melt stuff.

@andyd: I have some carpet underlayment/carpet padding; what kind of oil, motor oil? Instead of grease, I'm going to be using Permatex 80370 on the posts and connector terminals before and after I connect the two, since it probably does the same thing as dielectric grease.

Thanks for the continued responses, everyone; I usually expect threads to die off after about a week.

 

[SHOZ]

4 ga wire is what you need. The only ground needed is from the battery to the engine block, There are other grounds that go from the engine block to the body.

But this has been said before.