Direct injection, good technology or EPA forced?

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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
In the highly polarized world of politicking that occurs in the USA today, everyone is looking for something to be enraged about,something to blame someone else about, etc.


Excellent quote, regardless of the topic.
 
Originally Posted By: zach1900
What are your thoughts on this ?

It's not EPA-forced per se. But it will eventually become the only practical option as emissions and gas mileage standards (which are EPA-enforced) tighten to the point where they can't be met with port-injection.

It's a continuation of the process that made automotive carburetors obsolete in the US: Emissions standards for 1990 could not be met with carburetors, so everybody still using carburetors moved en masse to injection.

It's true that DI predates the new EPA rules, but it's expensive and somewhat impractical for use on a consumer automobile. They'll eventually find a way to work out all the bugs, but it will always be more expensive than port-injection, both to install and to repair.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But then again if traditional FI was so great we wouldn't have a fuel additives section where fi cleaner sells like wildfire and people worry about maintenance doses for their engines.

The use of DI technology does not necessarily negate the need for FI cleaners.



I never implied that it did. But one can't imply that non-DI engines are somehow magically deposit free.
 
Right, but the type of deposits that non-DI engines have are easily dealt with by using fuel additives. With DI engines, the cleaning is more complicated.
 
Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
There are diesels that have problems with intake tract deposits. Some BMW and VW will have to have the aftercoolers and intake mechanically cleaned. Some diesels, such as the Cummings have CCV filters. The intake tract deposits are mostly from condensed crankcase vapors and EGR. I would recommend that anyone with a DI gas engine add a ccv filter or catchcan. Best is a cool location that can be drained easily. It will not hurt and might help.
Anyone with a diesel not already fitted with a CCV might want to add one. Many folks use programmers to eliminate EGR, but this of course is illegal for on road
grin.gif


Well the ccv catch can or filter is probably also illegal, I will say that one of these has very little potential in increase emissions and is way better than putting in a road draft tube as some advocate.

DI is excellent technology, that will eventually be common and well accepted. The comment about early adopters finishing the R&D is well deserved.

Rod


A catch can on these is not illegal. It still retains the closed crankcase ventilation setup that is EPA required, it just provides filtering of any oil or particulates that come thru the PCV line so they don't enter the intake. I have used them on PI engines and am always amazed at the amount of junk they capture. For a DI engine, I would think they should be a first mod done to the vehicle.

You are correct, when commercial diesels started being required to have closed systems in 2007, the OEM's put filtration ./ catch can systems on them right from the factory. They knew full well the implications of having that junk mix with sooty EGR gasses. The automotive diesel OEM's didn't quite get their ducks in a row so well. Many VW and other owners have taken to putting on Provent and other "catch can" systems on their engines to negate the problems.

It is anyone's guess as to whether the OEM's even have taken this into consideration on the DI gassers. But they are so focused on trimming a dollar in production costs, and something like a catch can system would require additional maintenance and user attention, that it could be reasoned they just decided to not go with a setup like that. Just get thru the warranty and let the owner deal with it.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
There are diesels that have problems with intake tract deposits. Some BMW and VW will have to have the aftercoolers and intake mechanically cleaned. Some diesels, such as the Cummings have CCV filters. The intake tract deposits are mostly from condensed crankcase vapors and EGR. I would recommend that anyone with a DI gas engine add a ccv filter or catchcan. Best is a cool location that can be drained easily. It will not hurt and might help.
Anyone with a diesel not already fitted with a CCV might want to add one. Many folks use programmers to eliminate EGR, but this of course is illegal for on road
grin.gif


Well the ccv catch can or filter is probably also illegal, I will say that one of these has very little potential in increase emissions and is way better than putting in a road draft tube as some advocate.

DI is excellent technology, that will eventually be common and well accepted. The comment about early adopters finishing the R&D is well deserved.

Rod


A catch can on these is not illegal. It still retains the closed crankcase ventilation setup that is EPA required, it just provides filtering of any oil or particulates that come thru the PCV line so they don't enter the intake. I have used them on PI engines and am always amazed at the amount of junk they capture. For a DI engine, I would think they should be a first mod done to the vehicle.

You are correct, when commercial diesels started being required to have closed systems in 2007, the OEM's put filtration ./ catch can systems on them right from the factory. They knew full well the implications of having that junk mix with sooty EGR gasses. The automotive diesel OEM's didn't quite get their ducks in a row so well. Many VW and other owners have taken to putting on Provent and other "catch can" systems on their engines to negate the problems.

It is anyone's guess as to whether the OEM's even have taken this into consideration on the DI gassers. But they are so focused on trimming a dollar in production costs, and something like a catch can system would require additional maintenance and user attention, that it could be reasoned they just decided to not go with a setup like that. Just get thru the warranty and let the owner deal with it.


A catch can may be useful, but keep in mind many manufacturers have built these into their DI engines. For example, Ford has one built into the PCV system of its 2.0 na engines and presumably others. In this example, captured liquids are returned to the crankcase so there's no need to periodically empty a catch can.

The point is, don't add one without making sure you don't already have one. It could do more harm than good even without considering warranty issues.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
There are diesels that have problems with intake tract deposits. Some BMW and VW will have to have the aftercoolers and intake mechanically cleaned. Some diesels, such as the Cummings have CCV filters. The intake tract deposits are mostly from condensed crankcase vapors and EGR. I would recommend that anyone with a DI gas engine add a ccv filter or catchcan. Best is a cool location that can be drained easily. It will not hurt and might help.
Anyone with a diesel not already fitted with a CCV might want to add one. Many folks use programmers to eliminate EGR, but this of course is illegal for on road
grin.gif


Well the ccv catch can or filter is probably also illegal, I will say that one of these has very little potential in increase emissions and is way better than putting in a road draft tube as some advocate.

DI is excellent technology, that will eventually be common and well accepted. The comment about early adopters finishing the R&D is well deserved.

Rod


A catch can on these is not illegal. It still retains the closed crankcase ventilation setup that is EPA required, it just provides filtering of any oil or particulates that come thru the PCV line so they don't enter the intake. I have used them on PI engines and am always amazed at the amount of junk they capture. For a DI engine, I would think they should be a first mod done to the vehicle.

You are correct, when commercial diesels started being required to have closed systems in 2007, the OEM's put filtration ./ catch can systems on them right from the factory. They knew full well the implications of having that junk mix with sooty EGR gasses. The automotive diesel OEM's didn't quite get their ducks in a row so well. Many VW and other owners have taken to putting on Provent and other "catch can" systems on their engines to negate the problems.

It is anyone's guess as to whether the OEM's even have taken this into consideration on the DI gassers. But they are so focused on trimming a dollar in production costs, and something like a catch can system would require additional maintenance and user attention, that it could be reasoned they just decided to not go with a setup like that. Just get thru the warranty and let the owner deal with it.


A catch can may be useful, but keep in mind many manufacturers have built these into their DI engines. For example, Ford has one built into the PCV system of its 2.0 na engines and presumably others. In this example, captured liquids are returned to the crankcase so there's no need to periodically empty a catch can.

The point is, don't add one without making sure you don't already have one. It could do more harm than good even without considering warranty issues.


+1 From what I've been reading about diesel engines in cars, PU's and SUV's [late model] is the catch can helps, but there's still problems with the EGR. In fact maybe even bigger problems, that aren't easy, or impossible to fix and keep it legal. Lets not forget the warranty.

It's a shame since diesel IMO is a great platform, crippled by the emissions system.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Olas
At its core the technology is fantastic, but unfortunately certain laws and requirements cause undesirable side effects. Like everything else, it's a compromise between many different factors.


+1.

In the highly polarized world of politicking that occurs in the USA today, everyone is looking for something to be enraged about,msomething to blame someone else about, etc.

End of the day, DI isn't new, it's not evil, heck, it isn't that advanced. It's essentially how diesels have been making power for decades.

One really has to look at it in a reasonable middle ground without going in looking to get panties in a bunch.

There are very efficient, very clean operating, high mpg non-di engines

There are very inefficient, high polluting, low MPG di engines

If people would learn something besides how to polarize and argue, they might understand the thermodynamic benefits of DI.

It's a developing technology for sure. But then again if traditional FI was so great we wouldn't have a fuel additives section where fi cleaner sells like wildfire and people worry about maintenance doses for their engines.

Instead of looking at how to blame the EPA for di, why not get out second year engineering textbooks and try to learn why one might want it in the long run.



Still making sense. a turbo charged, direct injected enegine is a dream to drive.
 
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
I will honestly say-->I love my Port-Fuel Injected 5.7L Hemi-->One of the main reason I chose my new Ram {No Direct Injection}!

Our Audi w/Direct Injection 2.0LT has been nothing but a nightmare with valve Deposits.

If I can avoid Direct Injection I will.


Two thumbs up on that one!
 
Originally Posted By: cronk
Could a product like Amsoil Power Foam be effective at maintaining the intake valve cleanliness issues?


High RPMs for extended periods is the only thing I have seen that does work.

PowerFoam should work great since you spray it in and let it sit but nobody has taken any before and after pics of it to provide evidence it works.

Seafoam and chemicals through the intake while the engine runs do not work. That has been shown. Catch cans do not stop it. That has been shown, too by many BMW and Mini owners.
 
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
I will honestly say-->I love my Port-Fuel Injected 5.7L Hemi-->One of the main reason I chose my new Ram {No Direct Injection}!

Our Audi w/Direct Injection 2.0LT has been nothing but a nightmare with valve Deposits.

If I can avoid Direct Injection I will.


Two thumbs up on that one!


Toss another thumbs up. Some guys love them, some hate them. I'd rather pass on them just a little longer. When the pages are filled with people crossing the 200K mile mark with no problems I'm all ears. Or when Trav tells me there's no more worries. We've discussed DI many times...............
 
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