Pure Gasoline vs 10% Ethanol in newer vehicles

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Toluene is quite an effective octane booster and is also a major component of gasoline.

Do you realize what the spot price of toluene is? If you want to use toluene without ethanol, then your prices are going to be pretty high in today's marketplace.

The majority of commodity unleaded is already designed for blending with ethanol to arrive at a final result. Look up the acronym RBOB.


Around me all the gas is E10. The octane ratings are 87,89 and 92. So the base gas is 85, 87 and 91 octane. I believe gasoline is anywhere from 30-50% toluene now.

Doubt it's that high. The wholesale price of toluene is considerably more than refined gasoline. I'm thinking it's somewhere around $3/gallon (or at least was around last Dec). Besides that, toluene has poor volatility, so I doubt using that much is a good idea, especially with a winter fuel blend. Also - most toluene is made from refinery streams, so it's not as if unlimited amounts can be made. It's only a small fraction of the refinery output, and I noted that using up all the output to make salable fuel was basically a math exercise. And ethanol is part of that these days.

 

[SHOZ]

I doubt your doubt.....

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I doubt your doubt.....

In the end it's not about what the refiners can do in a world where the only consideration is meeting the demands of a small number of auto enthusiasts for E0 fuel. It's a matter of using up all the output, meeting regulatory requirements for finished fuel, and selling it at a reasonable profit. The fuel marketers hardly hate ethanol. It allows them to sell more higher octane rated fuel at a reasonable price.

Sure it would be possible to make more higher octane rated fuel without the use of oxygenates. They'd just need to find some way to dispose of part of their refinery output, and that's not an easy trick. The difficult part is being able to sell everything they produce.

 

[TiredTrucker]

What really disrupts the food markets is governments.

Clear case in point. California passed legislation that eggs could only be sold in the state that came from chickens that were in confinement cages twice the size of the typical industry standard hen operation. Even eggs imported from other states. What were the results?

CA egg prices have gone up from an average $1.18 a dozen, to over $3.60 a dozen (data from Wall Street Journal). Why? Many egg operations, the cost to implement this was approximately $40 per hen. Many operations just cut their number of hens in half instead of incuring the $2 million dollar cost to build more confinement facilities to meet the regulation of a typical 50,000 hen laying operation. So that reduced the number of laying hens. Same is true for states like Iowa, who is the largest producer of eggs in the U.S., and one of the largest suppliers to CA. So, it was cut back on number of hens or spend exorbitant amounts to increase confinement facilities for existing hens. All of this led to decreased egg production and a higher demand with a subsequent higher price.

And eggs are the cheapest form or protein available in the average diet. But now, the prices go up and again, the low income are the most affected. And everything that uses eggs goes up in price. All those baked goods, baking mixes, etc, etc, now all get the priced jacked up hurting the low income consumer. You want to bellyache about something, just this example is plenty to chew on.

Meanwhile, the majority of those hens are fed supplements produced from ethanol production. I regularly haul feed products from ethanol plants to poultry feed operations. The corn price and ethanol production is not what causes food prices to rise and shortages. It is governments, plain and simple. And in this example, the PETA crowd's influence on state government.

 

[SHOZ]

As the government mandates the use of ethanol as a fuel too.

 

[TiredTrucker]

That is true. But, it is not a zero sum gain. Much of the corn that is used for ethanol production also gets right back into the feed supply. That is what many folks just can't seem to get their minds around. There is no taking away from anything food related by using corn for ethanol production. And while the U.S. EPA has their fingers in this ethanol game, it is the individual states who determine if ethanol free gas will also be available at the pump for those that are die hard about not using ethanol. Cry to the state capitol if you have a beef with not being able to get ethanol free gas. I live in ethanol central, Iowa, and am surrounded by 46 ethanol plants. Yet, I can get ethanol free gas any time I want in any town around me.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Fact is, just tonight, went into town with a friend to fill up a 30 gallon drum he had with ethanol free gas that he wanted to keep around for his various small engines. Pulled right into town at the first station and filled the drum with E0. So the corn lobby must not be that big of decider who has to use ethanol, and anyone familiar with Iowa, knows that corn runs the state of Iowa. How is it then we have ready availability of ethanol free gas if the corn lobby is so powerful and behind all of this? They aren't. Government is behind all of it. But Iowa's government, at least on this issue, isn't as stupid as some other states. They still allow us to buy what we want, when we want. Take your pick... E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, or E85. But, it could also have something to do with the fact that we have never had emissions inspection games they play with owner's vehicles. No one's vehicle, gas, LP, NG, or diesel, is emissions tested in Iowa. We haven't found the need yet to drink the greenie Kool-Aid when it comes to vehicles and equipment.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Less carbon and better environment.


So sorry, but that is publicity, not all factual, and very debatable.

so I agree with the previous posters about content...


But you agreed that the top of pistons were clean at this e85 topic

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2550069

What you mean fo "very debatable factual publicity" ? 10% should already help, no?



How is a thread about engine wear even relative? Clean pistons are a wonderful thing, but have little to do with the ethanol debate being discussed here...


Take a look at the thread, there is your answer. E85 is made of ethanol. The pistons were spotless from using it. And there's too much discussion about cc cleaners in the forum, also.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^^Hello?

Clean piston tops is not by itself indicative of much except tune. I have rebuilt many truck engines that had dirty pistons at 2-300k miles, never seemed to slow them down a bit.

The topic of THIS thread is/was E10 vs. pure gas. Not E85.

There are many many downsides to alcohol for our country, as the debate is primarily political and not factual. See the difference?

 

[-SyN-]

If you own a new auto and your only choice at the pumps are E10 or whatever is actually being pumped into your tank...Do you still need to add a fuel system cleaner? Since ethanol is supposed to burn more clean then 100% gas!

 

[TiredTrucker]

Well, if one is using top tier already, I would venture to say.. no. Not sure that ethanol "burns more clean" but it does have a solvent effect on fuel systems and will prevent or remove deposits in the fuel system.

 

[SHOZ]

Since the use of ethanol in gas I have never seen the need for any fuel cleaner, 40 years worth. Top Tier gas or not. The EP has a minimum standard for cleaners in the gas.

 

[chiefsfan1]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Donald
When I asked, I was told that Federal law allows them to sell only grades above regular without ethanol. So already its going to be a higher cost since its mid-range or premium.

The worst for E10 gas issues were some large boats made by Carver (I think) where the resin used for the fiberglass gas tanks was dissolved by the E10. They had to cut sections into the boats to replace the tanks.


That can't be true. We have 87 octane E0 in Kansas City. It is about $0.10/gallon more than E10.


Where in KC is this? I live there. All I see is 91 octane E0

 

[TiredTrucker]

For those that have a smart phone and are concerned with getting ethanol free fuel, the Pure Gas app does a pretty good job of locating it. I don't go around looking for ethanol free, but I still have the app and take a look once in a while in my travels just to see what the availability of the stuff is wherever I am.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^^Hello?

Clean piston tops is not by itself indicative of much except tune. I have rebuilt many truck engines that had dirty pistons at 2-300k miles, never seemed to slow them down a bit.

The topic of THIS thread is/was E10 vs. pure gas. Not E85.

There are many many downsides to alcohol for our country, as the debate is primarily political and not factual. See the difference?


Hello!

The main difference between E10 and E85 is the alcohol content, showing more of the cleaning burning effects.

 

[SHOZ]

Almost all engines can run on E10 while a smaller number can run the E85.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Interesting that when GF-5 oils came out they needed to improve on rust resistance from E85 on GF-4 oils. Now I am by no means a scientist nor claim that title but it sounds like even though e10 is far from e85 they have some issues in common that are a problem. I know its horrible in the winter and Brazil still uses straight petrol for winter starts. At the few times I have been held at the mercy of the e10 pumps I have always went up to 89 octane and used gumout regane to neutralize the ethanol effect. I'm currently getting 39+ mpg on a 12' hyundai accent with 111,234 mi that has seen only e 0 fuel and pennzoil synthetics/mos2 for over 90% of its life so i am content using puregas fuel and pureplus natural gas synthetics.

 

[Pontual]

In Brazil it is used E25 for winter start in pure alcohol cars that uses E100 in tank. I agree that a FSC would help to neutralize only the corrosive effects of ethanol in fuel. I know that ethanol is a great solvent for PEA, since I was a kid building RC planes doing straps for wing attachments, using epoxy glue diluted with ethanol applied by a paint brush on strap textiles for making attachment brackets. Maybe that dilution of PEA makes a less corrosive fuel anyway!

 

[Fyrball]

In my 2006 Colorado Z71, 3.5L I-5, 80k miles, E0 makes a big difference[10-12%] in MPG. and a noticeable improvement in low end torque. Where I notice it the most is how much sooner the trans shifts into OD, and how much later it shifts out of OD on long pulling hills.

 

[Patman]

I see a 10% improvement in MPG in my Corvette running non ethanol gas. Unfortunately it's only available around here with premium gas, which my Corvette needs, but my Honda doesn't. So there is no point spending the extra $$$ on premium in my Honda, as it negates any savings I might see from the MPG bump.