Myth Busted: "Bad cat won't cause misfire"

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
It was DoubleWasp crying Chicken Little and that's all you are doing with your hypothetical. We can go back and forth all week like that. It is a stainless steel, original equipment equivalent from a well known brand. I highly doubt there would be a problem. If there was, you figure it out. It costs money to operate a vehicle. Certainly don't want to compromise your integrity over it.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I give, you tell me.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?


You're out a lot of money and still have the problem.

The new ECUs will test the cat by driving it very lean then driving it rich and see how long it takes to saturate the cat. If the aftermarket one has less capacity it will not pass the test and you are left with an insufficient cat efficacy code. Might as well just put in a test pipe.


Not worried about my integrity. They don't test the cars here. It's just you have to live with inferior machinery or spend the high priced OEM money. The aftermarket company may guarantee the converter to pass but when it doesn't then you get into the swap and ship hassles.

 

[Oil Changer]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I'm not a repair shop, as referenced in the statute Steve posted.


You're tap dancing; being disingenuous. You know you are doing something that is technically illegal and acknowledged it.

Quote:
Yeah, I saved the business money. So what?


No problems saving money. You could have done that through the aftermarket. You said, "no reasonable alternative". $500 is pretty reasonable, especially comparing it to the OE.

Quote:
You also made no mention of using an aftermarket replacement

Obviously you didn't. This has been covered several times throughout this thread.


Please point out where you discussed using an aftermarket cat. Bet you can't.

Quote:
Valvoline is a respected name in transmission fluids.


LOL! You did get the joke!

Quote:
And I could have spent that non-refundable sum and still had a CEL and inferior emissions performance. You want to take that gamble? You pony up the cash.


Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Strawman argument. I would have paid the cash because I prefer my vehicles remain stock and unlike you, won't compromise my integrity.

Quote:
You are such a drama queen.


Your childish insults have no effect on me other than to make me laugh at you.

 

[Oil Changer]

And I'm the drama queen! Hahahahaha!!!

Your vehicle is inanimate. That makes your vehicle an "it" not "she". For vessels, it is a maritime tradition so don't go there.

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
She got so bad, that under any high load situation she would sound like ant-aircraft guns were firing from the driver's side of her engine.

 

[babyivan]

I lease cars from a taxi garage and one common issue ALL of them (Crown Vics) suffer are bad cats. I reset the CEL (disconnect battery) before every shift, I hate staring at that light!
It's bad enough the FED. mandated those TPMS systems that consistently give false readings.

Breaking the law is BREAKING THE LAW and NO justifying what you did will change that (I knowingly do it and accept that I'm a bad boy).....

But the OP makes a great point; if the Feds and EPA want us to comply, then they need to force the automakers to build better cats/emissions systems that don't self destruct so easily.
Perhaps even standardize them across ALL car lines, that would bring the cost of replacement WAY down!

Forcing us into this high maintenance/cost item hurts the hard working middle class guy such as myself.

 

[circuitsmith]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I'm not a repair shop, as referenced in the statute Steve posted.


It is now against federal law for an individual to defeat emission controls:

EPA regulations/federal laws state that removal of a catalytic converter from a vehicle that was originally equipped with a catalytic converter is a violation of said regulations/laws. And in doing so can result in up to a $20,000 fine.

The act of removing a catalytic converter without replacing it with an approved replacement (known as "tampering") is illegal under federal law and is of great concern to EPA because of the high pollution levels that are emitted by vehicles without properly functioning emission controls. The original antitampering law was part of the Clean Air Act of 1970; it applied only to manufacturers and car dealers. The antitampering law was expanded by the 1977 Clean Air Act Amendments to apply to all automobile repair facilities, commercial mechanics, and fleet operators. And the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments (CAAA) broadened the tampering provision even further; it now applies to everyone, including car owners. Here is the text from the 1990 CAAA:

"Section 288 – Enforcement: (b) TAMPERING WITH VEHICLE EMISSION CONTROLS –

(1) Section 203(a)(3) (42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3)) is amended to read as follows:

'(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

'(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use..."

 

[SHOZ]

I'm looking out for the EPA police.

 

[circuitsmith]

When I sold my '88 Accord (fuel injected) at 20 y.o. and 220K miles it had the original converter and O2 sensors, and it still passed the treadmill emission test by a wide margin.
So cat converters can be durable if well made and fed from a well maintained engine.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer


You're tap dancing; being disingenuous. You know you are doing something that is technically illegal and acknowledged it.


I'm not tap dancing at all. You're not a Federal prosecutor, so you can't say that I have or have not committed a crime until I am proven guilty in the courts.

Quote:
No problems saving money. You could have done that through the aftermarket. You said, "no reasonable alternative". $500 is pretty reasonable, especially comparing it to the OE.


It's not reasonable, because there is no information that solution even works. I'm not going to unload $1000 from the company account for something I don't even know works. If you like to do f***-up jobs for your company, God Bless You. I'm not going to do that.


Quote:
Please point out where you discussed using an aftermarket cat. Bet you can't.


I am about to perform the impossible:

Quote:
I asked our scrap guy, who buys all of our cats about that very topic a long time ago. He was very clear, and demonstrated to me that most aftermarket cats are little more than chambers with screens in them. He doesn't even buy them because they contain almost zero rare metals.

The rare metals are the catalyst, so the result is you're buying the honeycomb and a metal chamber.


You were saying?

Quote:

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Strawman argument. I would have paid the cash because I prefer my vehicles remain stock and unlike you, won't compromise my integrity.


Opinions, opinions, opinions. You are not the King of Earth, and don't determine how other peoples' money is spent.

And you don't know the meaning of a straw man argument. Brilliant.

Quote:
Your childish insults have no effect on me other than to make me laugh at you.


Then you should place at least some sort of limit on your own. Your posts are filled with plenty.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
And I'm the drama queen! Hahahahaha!!!

Your vehicle is inanimate. That makes your vehicle an "it" not "she". For vessels, it is a maritime tradition so don't go there.


I'm sorry, did you seriously think I was going to attempt to justify myself to you? It's our truck, she is a she, and I will car her a she if I [censored] well want to call her a she.

Again, you are not King of the Earth, and you cannot tell people what to do with their property.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
When I sold my '88 Accord (fuel injected) at 20 y.o. and 220K miles it had the original converter and O2 sensors, and it still passed the treadmill emission test by a wide margin.
So cat converters can be durable if well made and fed from a well maintained engine.


Ironically, foreign manufacturers use the highest amounts of actual catalyst in their catalytic converters. That's why import converters are worth more as scrap than domestic cats.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I'm not a repair shop, as referenced in the statute Steve posted.


It is now against federal law for an individual to defeat emission controls:

EPA regulations/federal laws state that removal of a catalytic converter from a vehicle that was originally equipped with a catalytic converter is a violation of said regulations/laws. And in doing so can result in up to a $20,000 fine.

The act of removing a catalytic converter without replacing it with an approved replacement (known as "tampering") is illegal under federal law and is of great concern to EPA because of the high pollution levels that are emitted by vehicles without properly functioning emission controls. The original antitampering law was part of the Clean Air Act of 1970; it applied only to manufacturers and car dealers. The antitampering law was expanded by the 1977 Clean Air Act Amendments to apply to all automobile repair facilities, commercial mechanics, and fleet operators. And the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments (CAAA) broadened the tampering provision even further; it now applies to everyone, including car owners. Here is the text from the 1990 CAAA:

"Section 288 – Enforcement: (b) TAMPERING WITH VEHICLE EMISSION CONTROLS –

(1) Section 203(a)(3) (42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3)) is amended to read as follows:

'(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

'(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use..."


The cats fell off when I ran over a bump, so this doesn't apply to me.

 

[Oil Changer]

DoubleWasp. You have committed a crime. Because you choose in your own mind to justify your actions doesn't make it less true. You're also a liar. Your cats did not fall off when you ran over a bump, you purposely and willfully removed them.

It's not $1000. It would have been a little over half that because you only needed to change one side. A good business owner wouldn't have replaced both if only one was bad. You don't know if an aftermarket cat would have worked or not because you did not even try.

So after talking to your scrap guy, using an aftermarket cat was off the table. That is the single, most hilarious thing I have ever read on this forum. Do you consult your cobbler before buying tires? Do you consult a grocer before buying fuel? Whom do you consult for financial advice? But we can run with that. You quoted your scrap guy as saying, "most aftermarket cats are little more than chambers with screens in them." He didn't say "all". The one I linked certainly has more than a screen. You have no idea if an aftermarket cat would have worked or not; you didn't even try. You also said this was covered "several times" throughout this thread. That one doesn't even count. Where's the rest?

I'm not telling you what to do with your property; it's yours to do with as you please. All I said is that it is ridiculous to refer to an inanimate as "she". What's her name? Did you hold the steering wheel and talk softly to her while she was being welded on? Did you give her a couple days rest before driving her after this amputation? Are you going to take her back for a check-up? When she dies, are you going to load her up on a flatbed and have a procession to the scrap yard? Or are you going to cremate her and keep her ashes on the mantel?

With you mastery of the multi-quote, your anger issues, your eagerness to fight on an Internet forum, and your desire to always have the last word, I'd be surprised to learn you are any older than 20 and your business any more than a mobile car wash.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^^Haw, that last line is a doozy!

But ole DW is always good for a laugh. And proposing that it is OK for him to break the law is fine by him but may not work for everyone.

I run a fleet. We conform to the law. We have consistently been profitable across decades. I postulate that it may even be possible for some others to duplicate this success. Even without breaking laws.

Psst, DW, please note that ole Steve never quoted a statute, just referenced the law as almost everyone knows that removing/tampering of emissions devices is a no no.

But not for you, eh?

 

[SHOZ]

Pretty common mod for the 2L turbo Gen Coupe. All off road of course.

 

[Joel_MD]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I know the Indian is crying a little tear because we don't have cats anymore...

Hee hee, I remember those public service announcements when I was a little kid. Here's an interesting article about Iron Eyes Cody: http://priceonomics.com/the-true-story-of-the-crying-indian/

Several years ago I hit a bad pothole that caused all the emissions stuff (EGR, diesel oxidation catalyst, diesel particulate filter, etc) to fall off my Cummins-powered Ram, and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. It solved multiple problems including fuel dilution of the oil, near-constant CEL, lower fuel economy, etc.

Now I'm playing around with my Saab 9-5 and I'm trying to find that same pothole. I know some guys who are running catless (or bashed-out cat) downpipes on their Saabs, and they love it. Some of the Saab tuners have modified the ECU software so it ignores the downstream O2 sensor, so no CEL to worry about. The Maryland emissions test is supposed to include a visual inspection to ensure the cat is intact, but in my experience the inspector usually skips that step due to laziness or whatever. I guess if all the inspector looks for is a bulge in the pipe or a heat shield attached, one could get away with a fugazi cat or just a resonator where the cat is supposed to go.

 

[SHOZ]

My tune on the 2L turbo turns off the CEL but it will not pass and emission test due to the drive cycle being incomplete. But they don't test here so....

 

[exranger06]

Anyone who purposely removes or disables catalytic converters is an inconsiderate douche.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Anyone who purposely removes or disables catalytic converters is an inconsiderate douche.


Well thank you. I'll light a couple tires up today for you. Pollution is more the smell of hog farms here rather than cars.

 

[Joel_MD]

SHOZ, you should have more empathy for the hand wringing, psychotropic pill-popping, tree-hugging lurkers here. With every word you write you are single-handedly sending droves of them to their fainting couches.

 

[exranger06]

Just what are you trying to accomplish by removing the cat? You're not gonna gain any power. So, what benefit is there? Other than needlessly polluting more and breaking laws, of course.

I like how the inconsiderate douches labels anyone who cares about pollution a tree-hugger. It's not like breathing is important or anything, only hippies care about that.