Motorcraft 820-s Oil Filter Failures? Fram Ultra?

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Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Stewie
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but how can you tell a filter is bad without cutting it open, Fram not very smart lol

I assume that FRAM did cut it open since the OP of the spin-on sent it back to them?

Unless you meant before using it? I always shake them to ensure nothing is loose. I have no way of knowing if that would have helped the OP or not.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Stewie
32.gif
but how can you tell a filter is bad without cutting it open, Fram not very smart lol

I assume that FRAM did cut it open since the OP of the spin-on sent it back to them?

Unless you meant before using it? I always shake them to ensure nothing is loose. I have no way of knowing if that would have helped the OP or not.


Well yeah before and after. You do not know if they actually cut it open or just toss it away and send the OP 6 new filters.

Even after, the thing is it might not rattle but could be bend like tearolators. If it screwed up there is no way of knowing without cutting it open which is why there are many bad filters out there.

For example:

After OCI how do you tell if there is a tear without cutting it open? So after you find out by cutting it open they will no longer accept it as warranty which defeats the purpose of the warranty of quality.

Before: it just lies in the hands of QA at Fram and by just shaking it making sure nothing is lose.

PS: I hate the fact that Fram filters are not protected with plastic like M1 filters.
 
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Originally Posted By: Stewie
IMO cartridge filters don't count
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Tell that to the folks that had failures. Lol.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: geeman789
Inlet hole area makes no difference if their max flow equals the outlet hole. And the outlet hole is NOT the size of the hole on the filter, it is the size of the hole inside the mounting flange on the filter mount, so about half the size of the filter outlet hole...

True--however, the delta would remain the same between the two filters no matter what the inlet nozzle is. The next time I change the oil, I plan to measure the ID of the inlet nozzle and recalculate the numbers.


I ran the numbers, and the percentage difference doesn't remain constant. Seems like it would, but you have to crunch the numbers to see ... probably because it's an area (R squared) function.

If the inside diameter of the mounting stud was 16 mm instead of 21 mm, then the outlet area would be 201 sq-mm, and the total hole area in the Ultra base plate would still be 21% more than the mounting stud hole area (244/201 = 121%).

I don't see a problem with flow restriction. I doubt Fram would over look something this basic.
 
The smaller Fram like I said before has ten holes and the holes are bigger, way more area than the outlet. But the value of 244 is off on the larger filters smaller 8 holes, 5mm diam.= 157 mm sq. there is more restriction down the galleys. I think 16mm is about right for the ID of the center tube, as a rough guess, on the comon 3/4-16 thread.
 
^^^ Are the base plate inlet holes 5 mm or more around a hair over 6 mm as 2010_FX4 must have measured on the XG2?
 
On the tiny XG4967 the holes are oval, 5.6 x 6.5mm diam, and there are ten holes. On the XG3614 the holes are oval, 4.9mm x 5.6mm +/- about.1, and there are eight holes. the holes aren't all the same probably due to burrs interfering with the calipers. So I was off a little on the first calc,using the minor dimension. the smaller holes on the larger filter are more like 175 mm sq total appx. Maybe there are more sizes of inlet holes on the Frams.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I ran the numbers, and the percentage difference doesn't remain constant. Seems like it would, but you have to crunch the numbers to see ... probably because it's an area (R squared) function.

You are correct; I re-ran them using 21mm through 15mm and the percentage difference between the MC and the FRAM grows as the outflow diameter decreases. For the FRAM it is nearly 100% when the outflow diameter is 18mm (96%), 17mm is 108%, and 16mm is 121%. 16mm is my guess as to what the ID of the block nozzle is (2.5mm wall thickness on the nozzle). I have several thousand to go before I can take an actual measurement
grin.gif
 
The Denso I have here has 4mm diameter holes, 8 holes , much less than the 8 hole Fram in area. I am pretty sure Toyota understands how to calculate the area of a hole, so this flow restriction idea really is not an issue to me. The furthwr oil gall]erys and main bearings must be more restrictive and the smallest opening after the filter is what counts, not just the outlet tube.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Is this all about inlet hole size now? I've lost track.
smile.gif


More or less--it was about the base plate inlet and outlet holes and the percent inflow to outflow. There was a question about the small holes in FRAM filters versus the larger ones in the MC and if the small holes in the FRAM caused its baseplate to be more restrictive. Conclusion (at least mine) is the FRAM is fine when the ID of the block nozzle is used for the calculation.

Clear as muddy water now?
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Haha I guess so.

I never really gave it much thought though.. Once oil is hot, I'd imagine it would flow quite well regardless of the inlet hole configuration.

The 4 hole Mann filters leave me a little skeptical, but they are the OEM filters for many applications so I have full confidence in them.
 
Originally Posted By: SJohnson
So, this got me thinking. I have both a P1 and an Ultra that fit my '08 Civic. I wonder what the difference is between the base plates. Wow!!! Big difference. Although I couldn't get a good pic, the inside of the Ultra appears to have more holes.




The one on the right looks like a lot more holes
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: SJohnson
So, this got me thinking. I have both a P1 and an Ultra that fit my '08 Civic. I wonder what the difference is between the base plates. Wow!!! Big difference. Although I couldn't get a good pic, the inside of the Ultra appears to have more holes.




The one on the right looks like a lot more holes
You just can't see the holes on the left one.
 
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