I think that Tesla is a technology company first and foremost with these electric cars being the showcase. I see several of them in my area but I wonder if they're in it for the long haul in terms of cars. You'd think that they might sell a lot of the technology patents, licenses, etc. to other automakers ( as Musk seemed receptive to ) and get into controlling the battery component once things take off with more viable EVs. Musk is saying that Tesla is going to have the market cap of Apple in x years and I don't see that as being from their cars but I may be wrong.
Drove a Tesla "D" model today, Oh boy!
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Sounds like a thrilling car to drive in both dynamics and acceleration.
It is attractive in a generic Kia/Hyundai/Mazda sort of way.
Nothing distinctive in this car's body design.
These cars seem almost too perfect.
I find myself wondering what the downside is.
Granted that Elon Musk isn't exactly waiting for his next EBT top-up to buy the groceries, but the resources available to him are certainly no more than those available to any major manufacturer.
Why has no other manufacturer built a serious modern EV?
Are there some hidden gremlins here, or is this car really as good as it seems to be?
I could buy a basic Model S for a not unreasonable sum and drive it on my commute every day. If I happened to forget to plug it in for a day or two, all would still be well.
Tesla seems to have gone well beyond what anybody else has achieved in an EV.
This is a car you'd buy because it really seems that good.
It just happens to have batteries rather than a fuel tank.
Meanwhile, BMW and Mercedes offer laughable EVs for substantial money.
Why?
Well said on all points IMO.
Few points:
1. Elon Musk didn't start Tesla Motors to make money, really. He started it as part of a larger project to make energy more sustainable. He assumed it would lose money and eventually fail, but figured that'd be okay as long as it made an impact in the process. The fact that the business seems to be sustainable is a welcome surprise. I think this explains why Tesla Motors could make the Model S as good as it is while other companies struggle to put out anything worthwhile. Other companies have to make a business case for every product they make, which means they are constrained by corporate cultures and profitability requirements. Tesla Motors, on the other hand, just focused single-mindedly on making the product great.
2. As I understand, the Model S has indeed had a few teething pains (heard a few owners talk about odd repairs being needed), so it's not entirely without a catch. At the same time, Tesla is handling those issues with less inconvenience to its owners than its competitors seem to manage (e.g. software updates are over-the-air, and they take the car away and bring you a loaner rather than requiring you to come into the shop), so that's good.
3. When you look at why the big companies' EVs suck, most of the reasons are related to the fact that they are all intended to be city cars. That explains their cramped dimensions, mediocre dynamics, and pathetic range. Maybe they just figure no one would buy an EV for anything but really short commutes, and therefore they don't want to build anything that's intended for any other use.
Sounds like a thrilling car to drive in both dynamics and acceleration.
It is attractive in a generic Kia/Hyundai/Mazda sort of way.
Nothing distinctive in this car's body design.
These cars seem almost too perfect.
I find myself wondering what the downside is.
Granted that Elon Musk isn't exactly waiting for his next EBT top-up to buy the groceries, but the resources available to him are certainly no more than those available to any major manufacturer.
Why has no other manufacturer built a serious modern EV?
Are there some hidden gremlins here, or is this car really as good as it seems to be?
I could buy a basic Model S for a not unreasonable sum and drive it on my commute every day. If I happened to forget to plug it in for a day or two, all would still be well.
Tesla seems to have gone well beyond what anybody else has achieved in an EV.
This is a car you'd buy because it really seems that good.
It just happens to have batteries rather than a fuel tank.
Meanwhile, BMW and Mercedes offer laughable EVs for substantial money.
Why?
Well said on all points IMO.
Few points:
1. Elon Musk didn't start Tesla Motors to make money, really. He started it as part of a larger project to make energy more sustainable. He assumed it would lose money and eventually fail, but figured that'd be okay as long as it made an impact in the process. The fact that the business seems to be sustainable is a welcome surprise. I think this explains why Tesla Motors could make the Model S as good as it is while other companies struggle to put out anything worthwhile. Other companies have to make a business case for every product they make, which means they are constrained by corporate cultures and profitability requirements. Tesla Motors, on the other hand, just focused single-mindedly on making the product great.
2. As I understand, the Model S has indeed had a few teething pains (heard a few owners talk about odd repairs being needed), so it's not entirely without a catch. At the same time, Tesla is handling those issues with less inconvenience to its owners than its competitors seem to manage (e.g. software updates are over-the-air, and they take the car away and bring you a loaner rather than requiring you to come into the shop), so that's good.
3. When you look at why the big companies' EVs suck, most of the reasons are related to the fact that they are all intended to be city cars. That explains their cramped dimensions, mediocre dynamics, and pathetic range. Maybe they just figure no one would buy an EV for anything but really short commutes, and therefore they don't want to build anything that's intended for any other use.
Originally Posted By: GM4LIFE
I still prefer the sound and feel of a true V8. While Teslas are cool and all, I prefer my manual CTS-V Coupe.
Have you driven a Tesla? lol
I still prefer the sound and feel of a true V8. While Teslas are cool and all, I prefer my manual CTS-V Coupe.
Have you driven a Tesla? lol
Originally Posted By: Patman
Cujet, you should change your signature line now, as it seems that maybe all wheel drive electric cars rule, not turbos!
I want a Tesla so bad! My dream garage when my lotto numbers come up will consist of a Tesla Model S P85D, a new Corvette and a Lamborghini Huracan.
Hahahaha, I have seen the light! However, I still love turbocharged "affordable" vehicles.
I was riding my friends Zero SR 12.5 yesterday. It's the Tesla of motorcycles. Man, that thing is really fun. The overall feeling is much like the Tesla, simply effortless power and capability.
Cujet, you should change your signature line now, as it seems that maybe all wheel drive electric cars rule, not turbos!
I want a Tesla so bad! My dream garage when my lotto numbers come up will consist of a Tesla Model S P85D, a new Corvette and a Lamborghini Huracan.
Hahahaha, I have seen the light! However, I still love turbocharged "affordable" vehicles.
I was riding my friends Zero SR 12.5 yesterday. It's the Tesla of motorcycles. Man, that thing is really fun. The overall feeling is much like the Tesla, simply effortless power and capability.
Originally Posted By: Win
Awesome.
What is the range? What do they cost?
My friend is now seeing 295 watt hours per mile, as his average consumption. That equates to 288 miles per charge. Better than my S2000, which gets 245 miles per tank. And, I go all week on a tank. So the Tesla would suit my needs very well.
The "D" model is about $120K. Absurdly expensive, that's for sure. I could never claim it's a good deal, somehow more practical, or better for the environment. I Only claim that it's a fine piece of equipment and an absolute joy to drive.
Awesome.
What is the range? What do they cost?
My friend is now seeing 295 watt hours per mile, as his average consumption. That equates to 288 miles per charge. Better than my S2000, which gets 245 miles per tank. And, I go all week on a tank. So the Tesla would suit my needs very well.
The "D" model is about $120K. Absurdly expensive, that's for sure. I could never claim it's a good deal, somehow more practical, or better for the environment. I Only claim that it's a fine piece of equipment and an absolute joy to drive.
It's fairly safe and logical prediction as far as cars and light trucks go and there many examples where a turbo engine with a smaller number of largish cylinders is already a better solution, never mind the glaringly-obvious one in the subject line of this thread. Even the otto cycle internal combustion engine itself is on course for extinction wherever it can be replaced by electric battery/hydrogen.
That's not the same as saying that V-8s will sound "odd."
I enjoy my small turbocharged engine, but it doesn't dimminish my enjoyment of antique cars and the sounds they make. I'm sure a great number of people who enjoy cars likely feel the same.
I enjoy my small turbocharged engine, but it doesn't dimminish my enjoyment of antique cars and the sounds they make. I'm sure a great number of people who enjoy cars likely feel the same.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: GM4LIFE
I still prefer the sound and feel of a true V8.
To me, the lack of sound is about the ONLY negative/drawback to this vehicle (besides the cost of course).
For those who want/need absolute quiet, it is the PERFECT ride!
I'm going to disagree. Every electric vehicle I've driven makes noise when it's making power. And, interestingly enough, that noise is quite pleasing.
The Zero SR motorcycle makes a groaning sound at lower speeds/full throttle and a whine that properly climbs with speed at higher speeds/full throttle.
The Tesla clearly lets you know you are producing power. Nearly 700HP is not silent. It sounds really good.
Originally Posted By: GM4LIFE
I still prefer the sound and feel of a true V8.
To me, the lack of sound is about the ONLY negative/drawback to this vehicle (besides the cost of course).
For those who want/need absolute quiet, it is the PERFECT ride!
I'm going to disagree. Every electric vehicle I've driven makes noise when it's making power. And, interestingly enough, that noise is quite pleasing.
The Zero SR motorcycle makes a groaning sound at lower speeds/full throttle and a whine that properly climbs with speed at higher speeds/full throttle.
The Tesla clearly lets you know you are producing power. Nearly 700HP is not silent. It sounds really good.
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Even the otto cycle internal combustion engine itself is on course for extinction wherever it can be replaced by electric battery/hydrogen.
You do realize that our ancestors had electric cars, and they were driven extinct by the internal combustion engine, because it was far more practical than carrying around a ton of batteries that took hours to charge?
For electric cars to take over, you need a massive improvement in battery technology so it can run for hundreds of miles and charge in a few minutes. Hydrogen has no hope, since it's mostly made from natural gas, which is a better automotive fuel than hydrogen. No-one would even be considering it, if not for government regulation that pretends it's somehow cleaner than just burning that natural gas.
Now, in fifty years when you're driving on Mars, sure, you'll be driving an electric car because there are no oil fields on Mars. But, absent that battery improvement, or a MrFusion power plant, few people will be driving one on Earth.
Even the otto cycle internal combustion engine itself is on course for extinction wherever it can be replaced by electric battery/hydrogen.
You do realize that our ancestors had electric cars, and they were driven extinct by the internal combustion engine, because it was far more practical than carrying around a ton of batteries that took hours to charge?
For electric cars to take over, you need a massive improvement in battery technology so it can run for hundreds of miles and charge in a few minutes. Hydrogen has no hope, since it's mostly made from natural gas, which is a better automotive fuel than hydrogen. No-one would even be considering it, if not for government regulation that pretends it's somehow cleaner than just burning that natural gas.
Now, in fifty years when you're driving on Mars, sure, you'll be driving an electric car because there are no oil fields on Mars. But, absent that battery improvement, or a MrFusion power plant, few people will be driving one on Earth.
Originally Posted By: emg
For electric cars to take over, you need a massive improvement in battery technology so it can run for hundreds of miles and charge in a few minutes.
Hydrogen has no hope, since it's mostly made from natural gas, which is a better automotive fuel than hydrogen.
...absent that battery improvement, or a MrFusion power plant, few people will be driving one on Earth.
Agreed. At this point in time, all electric power is an excellent rich mans toy.
However, hybrid elec/fuel vehicles have proven to be effective in reducing fuel consumption. Vehicles like the Volt, with limited battery range can work for many people. Even with today's technology.
I'll disagree on hydrogen. We can easily (not cheaply) utilize fuel cells and electric power to significantly improve efficiency. That may change, or it may not. Time will tell. You said hydrogen has no hope, but you did not acknowledge the massive improvement in propulsive efficiency hydrogen technology provides. Fuel cell efficiency is around 50%. Driving efficient elec motors with excellent results.
For electric cars to take over, you need a massive improvement in battery technology so it can run for hundreds of miles and charge in a few minutes.
Hydrogen has no hope, since it's mostly made from natural gas, which is a better automotive fuel than hydrogen.
...absent that battery improvement, or a MrFusion power plant, few people will be driving one on Earth.
Agreed. At this point in time, all electric power is an excellent rich mans toy.
However, hybrid elec/fuel vehicles have proven to be effective in reducing fuel consumption. Vehicles like the Volt, with limited battery range can work for many people. Even with today's technology.
I'll disagree on hydrogen. We can easily (not cheaply) utilize fuel cells and electric power to significantly improve efficiency. That may change, or it may not. Time will tell. You said hydrogen has no hope, but you did not acknowledge the massive improvement in propulsive efficiency hydrogen technology provides. Fuel cell efficiency is around 50%. Driving efficient elec motors with excellent results.
I think the point is that hydrogen power doesn't really make sense in a car. It made (makes?) plenty of sense as, say, a rocket fuel.
If one day hydrogen fuel cell tech advances to the point that it makes more sense than batteries, then I'm sure it'll make sense to switch. Until then....
If one day hydrogen fuel cell tech advances to the point that it makes more sense than batteries, then I'm sure it'll make sense to switch. Until then....
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think the point is that hydrogen power doesn't really make sense in a car. It made (makes?) plenty of sense as, say, a rocket fuel.
If one day hydrogen fuel cell tech advances to the point that it makes more sense than batteries, then I'm sure it'll make sense to switch. Until then....
Toyota seems pretty convinced that it could work. They plan to sell 700 of them in 2015.
I think the point is that hydrogen power doesn't really make sense in a car. It made (makes?) plenty of sense as, say, a rocket fuel.
If one day hydrogen fuel cell tech advances to the point that it makes more sense than batteries, then I'm sure it'll make sense to switch. Until then....
Toyota seems pretty convinced that it could work. They plan to sell 700 of them in 2015.
Indeed. The question is why.
Apparently Toyota favors fast filling and longer range, and doesn't mind (or think people will care) that producing and using hydrogen is so much less efficient. Seems like a reasonable judgment. At the same time, it doesn't mean hydrogen fuel cells are actually a better technology overall -- especially as we have no idea how well they've addressed the leakage/safety issues.
Apparently Toyota favors fast filling and longer range, and doesn't mind (or think people will care) that producing and using hydrogen is so much less efficient. Seems like a reasonable judgment. At the same time, it doesn't mean hydrogen fuel cells are actually a better technology overall -- especially as we have no idea how well they've addressed the leakage/safety issues.
My guess is that they want to be prepared to move in whatever direction the wind blows. If one market or another shows a desire to create infrastructure to support hydrogen fuel cell cars they may want to be able to get product into it faster than their competitors.
So I suppose it probably has more to do with that and less to do with them believing that it's the most efficient technology available.
So I suppose it probably has more to do with that and less to do with them believing that it's the most efficient technology available.
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