Oil For New Bike

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Shannow...

Whether you run a 30 or a 50 it won't protect the bearings
unless the oil is flowing and the more oil flow the
better protection


You have entirely no grasp on hydrodynamic lubrication.

The relative movement of the shaft in the bearings creates the oil film, which keeps the bearings separated, not the "flow" of oil.

The point at which the shaft and bearings are closest is the Minimum Oil Film Thickness in the bearing.

Things that affect MOFT (all other parameters being equal)
* More bearing diameter, greater MOFT.
* More bearing length, greater MOFT.
* Tighter clearance, greater MOFT.
* More revs, greater MOFT.
* Higher Viscosity, greater MOFT.

So...the Suzuki engineers designed the engine and made a recommendation on the oil to use...

Reducing the viscosity REDUCES the MOFT...plain and simple physics.

Can't get away from it, can't deny it, and flow doesn't lubricate.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
if 0w30 is so great, why not run 0w10?


An owner should only run whats recommemnded in the manual... Honda gives its owners three
viscosity choices... a 10wt ain't one of them...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


So...the Suzuki engineers designed the engine and made a recommendation on the oil to use...


So what viscosity does Suzuki's engineers recommend???

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: sunruh
if 0w30 is so great, why not run 0w10?


An owner should only run whats recommemnded in the manual... Honda gives its owners three
viscosity choices... a 10wt ain't one of them...

What's that right at the top of the page ?

10W...for freezing temps.

0W30 (PCMO) certainly isn't on the chart.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


So...the Suzuki engineers designed the engine and made a recommendation on the oil to use...


So what viscosity does Suzuki's engineers recommend???


10W40

You can go back to flow and lubrication any time you feel comfortable.

 

[rraiderr]

Suzuki says 20W-50 is fine, it is listed in the manual as an option similar to the Honda posting above.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: rraiderr
Suzuki says 20W-50 is fine, it is listed in the manual as an option similar to the Honda posting above.


Thanks but I researched my Gixxer manual before I spoke... It tickles my funny bone to
see the cager dig up motorcycle facts...

I believe if there is one thing an owner has control over its the viscosity of their
oil... so whether you choose the 20w50 option or the 10w30 option there is mounting
evidence that both will meet or exceed your track and mileage expectations... the only
difference you'll note will be the amount of RWHP judge by the seat of your pants... if
you Dyno your bike you'd see that a 50wt cost about 6 RWHP versus a 30wt... 6 RWHP is
about the gain of an after market pipe or pin point fuel mapping... 6 RWHP is a lot to
think about in unnecessary oil drag...

I know with oil comes feelings that grow out of scary thoughts and often become a barrier
to over come but isn't tackling a track on a motorcycle at speed all about facing your
fears and over coming barriers???

True to their racing heritage Gixxers are popular at track days... ask around the pits
about Suzuki's 10w30 option...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


0W30 (PCMO) certainly isn't on the chart.



True Honda only states 10w30 PCMO but 0w30 PCMO is sill a quality motor oil that meets
and exceeds the obsolete API service classification SE SF and SG...

Honda only recommends API ratings which sets minimum for performance
standards for lubricants... there is nothing in those early API SE SG
SH ratings that are motorcycle specific... SE SG SH are now obsolete
and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years
old they do not provide the same level of performance or protection as
the more up to date SL and SM specifications. so Mr.RC45's Mobil 1
0w30 is SM rated which according to the manual is an API oil that
"meets and exceeds" those old obsolete API standards... is your oil up
to date???


The following table shows the API specifications behind the letters...
"S" Status Service Gasoline Engines


SA Obsolete For older engines; no performance requirement. Use only
when specifically recommended by the manufacturer.

SB Obsolete For older engines. Use only when specifically recommended
by the manufacturer.

SC Obsolete For model year 1967 and older engines.

SE Obsolete For model year 1979 and older engines.

SF Obsolete For model year 1988 and older engines.

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black
sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes
phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and
shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but
phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine
designs meeting current emissions standards

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit
protection and wear protection, also better low temperature
performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

SN - Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to
provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more
stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource
Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with
improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control
system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on
ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.

Between Mobil 1 30 grade oils the 0w30 is the most current and advance... there is
nothing in the numbers to fear...

 

[Robenstein]

The problem with modern PCMO oil is not just the API rating. It is when they are combined with some of the other ratings used such as ILSAC ratings that problems arise. They have STEADILY reduced certain anti wear additives such as ZDDP. While back in the day when SG, SH, and SJ API ratings had good levels of it, they did not know that in the future they would have to pull that crucial part of the additive package WAY down in order to be easier on emissions control parts such as catalytic converters. Trusting a 20 plus year old manual to see into the future formulations is a bit naive.

Many people with flat tappet camshafts learned the hard way that a SM oil does not always "meet or exceed" an SJ oil in that regard when they dished out lifters or ran lobes off camshafts. That is why I would avoid a PCMO in a lighter viscosity in my bikes. Especially since that oil is also lubricating the gears in my transmission. Some may get by with it in bikes that are easier on oil...but some can get bit in the butt.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
... 6 RWHP is a lot to
think about in unnecessary oil drag...


Most people could get that back and more by going on a diet....so could the bike.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


What's that right at the top of the page ?

10W...for freezing temps.


Tricky cager you got me... no problem I'll respond but if you ever ask me again lets
focus on the popular multi grades...

At the top of the page Honda does indeed suggest a mono 10wt to insure enough oil will
flow to the bearings at a freezing -10... the actual viscosity numbers of a 10wt at the
operating temp of 212ºF is 5.5 cSt... this good news because its Honda's way to inform us
the absolute lowest viscosity possible where their engine will meet and exceed mile
expectations is 5.5 cSt... you can see why some Honda owners didn't worry about running a
30 grade at 10.1 cSt even when if it shears to 8.8 cSt...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Silk

Most people could get that back and more by going on a diet....so could the bike.


True... I'd shave my legs if I thought it would lower Mr.RC45's burden...

 

[Shannow]

BSS, you can go back to hydrodynamics and MOFT any time you feel comfortable.

Discussion on SG etc. isn't relevant to point that you are trying to make regarding flow and lubrication...it DOES mean that the "cager" oils 30 and below have far less anti wear additives than the SG....it's why I choose edge 5W30 A3/B4 for my (diesel) engine...it's got SL levels of additives.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Some may get by with it in bikes that are easier on oil...but some can get bit in the butt.


Mercy Rob if you're going to bring your concerns into the conversation I expect a lot more
evidence so we can all learn the facts... off the cuff apocalyptic warnings don't much help...

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Some may get by with it in bikes that are easier on oil...but some can get bit in the butt.


Mercy Rob if you're going to bring your concerns into the conversation I expect a lot more
evidence so we can all learn the facts... off the cuff apocalyptic warnings don't much help...



Mercy....read the rest of my post and stop selectively editing it like some 24hr cable news host. Do a VOA of a PCMO SJ rated 10w30 and then one of a SM oil formulation(same brand). You will notice less ZDDP in the SM. ZDDP is a good anti wear additive and I guess I would just like that in my oil to protect the gears of my transmission as well as my top end. I have seen cams run lobes off and dish lifters in less than an hour of runtime with oils that supposedly "meet or exceed" the performance of older oils. Venture out of your narrow view on ONE design and you will see evidence ALL over that newer oils are not superior to older ones in all ways because of stringent limits that place longevity of emissions components at a higher priority than engine wear.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
BSS, you can go back to hydrodynamics and MOFT any time you feel comfortable.

Discussion on SG etc. isn't relevant to point that you are trying to make regarding flow and lubrication...it DOES mean that the "cager" oils 30 and below have far less anti wear additives than the SG....it's why I choose edge 5W30 A3/B4 for my (diesel) engine...it's got SL levels of additives.




Amen...it is why I liked German Castrol 0w30 for some of my cars, it HAS to be SL rated. If it reduced the ZDDP levels to meet newer API and ILSAC ratings it COULD NOT pass other specs.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop

Between Mobil 1 30 grade oils the 0w30 is the most current and advance... there is
nothing in the numbers to fear...


LOL, between freezing and 100C, the 5W30 is both THINNER (economy and "flow"), has a slightly higher HTHS (3.1 versus 3.0, better protection), and less VII. The 5W30 has a higher viscosity index (172 versus 166 for the 0W), which means it thins out less over 100C.

Only place that your 0W is any better than the 5W is at -30C.

Anything from freezing to 120C, the 5W30 beat it.

 

[Analyzer]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


What's that right at the top of the page ?

10W...for freezing temps.


Tricky cager you got me... no problem I'll respond but if you ever ask me again lets
focus on the popular multi grades...

At the top of the page Honda does indeed suggest a mono 10wt to insure enough oil will
flow to the bearings at a freezing -10... the actual viscosity numbers of a 10wt at the
operating temp of 212ºF is 5.5 cSt... this good news because its Honda's way to inform us
the absolute lowest viscosity possible where their engine will meet and exceed mile
expectations is 5.5 cSt... you can see why some Honda owners didn't worry about running a
30 grade at 10.1 cSt even when if it shears to 8.8 cSt...


This is where you make a common mistake. Yes, a 10 grade oil is authorized by Honda for use in your RC45 from anywhere below 20 degrees on up to about 32 degrees, and THAT'S IT! Honda didn't recommend the use of a 0Wxx oil at or below freezing ambient temperatures back in 1994, nor do they recommend it now in 2015 (or ANY OF THE BIG FOUR JAPANESE MOTORCYCLE MANUFACTURERS for that matter). After all, this chart is based off a given oil viscosity at a given AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, this is why they don't suggest the use of a straight 10 grade oil over freezing temperatures because once the engine is up to operating temperature and if the ambient temperature is say 60 degrees outside, the straight 10 grade oil would fail to provide proper oil film thickness for the engine and gearbox due to the oils tendency to thin as temperatures continue to rise, thus increasing the chance for greater wear.

You failed to reply to Shannow's legitimate posting as you did previously to myself HERE, along with cutting apart Robenstein's posting about the use of PCMO's and increased wear. This is Mobil's product specifications guide showing the difference between your highly espoused AFE 0W30 and Mobil's motorcycle oil in 10W40 & 20W50 viscosities.

Mobil 1 Oil Specification Product Guide

Here, you can plainly see that for one, your AFE 0W30 when compared to their motorcycle specific oils will have significantly higher concentrations of VII's (viscosity index improvers) which will lead to a greater probability of temporary or permanent shear leading the oil to potentially drop down to a 0W20 and possibly cause excessive wear, and has in excess of 200% more phosphorus and zinc content than your AFE 0W30 which has to meet CAFE and emissions systems requirements.

Chevron-Oronite Temporary/Permanent Viscosity Loss

To further substantiate proof that PCMO's in motorcycle applications (along with decreased levels of ZDDP) have lead to increased clutch slippage and wear, lets review the JASO T:903 implementation manual developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers of Japan to combat these negative and detrimental effects (as quoted by myself previously): The JASO standard was formed by the Society of Automotive Engineers of Japan to better formulate motorcycle specific oils due to the automotive industry leaning towards thinner viscosity oil with lower coefficients of friction (friction modifiers) and go on to state and I quote, "Therefore it is a concern that 4-cycle engine oils for automobiles may cause clutch and transmission problems in motorcycle four cycle engines because the construction of the motorcycle engine is an “all in one” design." They then continue to list ongoing problems associated with the thinner viscosity oils that, "cause clutch slippage and gear pitting wear in motorcycle transmissions...leading to poor gear durability with these problems tested and observed in the field."

JASO T:903 IMPLEMENTATION MANUAL

Furthermore from Chemistry and Technology of Lubricants they also state, "As the integral motorcycle gearbox design can often give rise to higher shear loss in multi-grade lubricants than when used in passenger car application, after shear targets are set which reflect this while retaining sufficient base viscosity to afford an acceptable degree of gearbox wear protection from pitting or scuffing."

Chemistry and Technology of Lubricants by Roy M. Mortier, Malcolm F. Fox and Stefan T. Orszulik (December 1,2009)

Please feel free to properly respond to either one of these postings with actual facts/data from any peer reviewed sources if you can indeed find any information to the contrary.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Analyzer


Here, you can plainly see that for one, your AFE 0W30 when compared to their motorcycle specific oils will have significantly higher concentrations of VII's (viscosity index improvers)


Its not plain... where do you see the level of VIIs???

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


LOL, between freezing and 100C, the 5W30 is both THINNER (economy and "flow"), has a slightly higher HTHS (3.1 versus 3.0, better protection), and less VII. The 5W30 has a higher viscosity index (172 versus 166 for the 0W), which means it thins out less over 100C.

Only place that your 0W is any better than the 5W is at -30C.

Anything from freezing to 120C, the 5W30 beat it.


Better HTHS by .1 is hardly measurable in the gravity flow test of oil... higher index
by 6 is means little when anything over the viscosity index of 110 is considered very high...

Looks good on paper but give me your best mile marker my engine wears out under the
protection of 0w30???