Best office view anywhere:
http://www.chonday.com/Videos/pilotnewzdalnd1
Flying is simply not a job to me....
http://www.chonday.com/Videos/pilotnewzdalnd1
Flying is simply not a job to me....
Why pilots love their "job"
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I'd probably do the job if I had the money, but there's a problem....
Its so easy to be idealistic and gloss eyed from our perspective, now go talk to a regional pilot at your local Tier 2/3 airport and see what they think of the job.
Flat rate ruins another job.
Its so easy to be idealistic and gloss eyed from our perspective, now go talk to a regional pilot at your local Tier 2/3 airport and see what they think of the job.
Flat rate ruins another job.
Those houses right at he end of the runway...wow.
Originally Posted By: michaelluscher
I'd probably do the job if I had the money, but there's a problem....
Its so easy to be idealistic and gloss eyed from our perspective, now go talk to a regional pilot at your local Tier 2/3 airport and see what they think of the job.
Flat rate ruins another job.
I've been a regional pilot and feel their pain. We could have a loooong discussion about the system and I started to write something but suffice to say that the regional business model is broken. But you can still see some good sights, even at a regional
I'd probably do the job if I had the money, but there's a problem....
Its so easy to be idealistic and gloss eyed from our perspective, now go talk to a regional pilot at your local Tier 2/3 airport and see what they think of the job.
Flat rate ruins another job.
I've been a regional pilot and feel their pain. We could have a loooong discussion about the system and I started to write something but suffice to say that the regional business model is broken. But you can still see some good sights, even at a regional
I got to fly in the Navy in air-sea rescue in Pensacola way back in the 60s as an aircrew member, loved it, never got tired of it...
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Awesome video!
I'm actually in a position in life right now that would make becoming a professional pilot possible and be able to live on regional jet (or turbo prop) wages via stacking them on top of a defined benefits plan pension. Newly single as of a couple yrs ago, children grown up, be 52 in April and qualified to early-retire with a small pension for life that's nice to have but would require a 2nd career to elevate to a comfortable living. Hold a Private pilot license that's not current and only around 200 hrs tt in piston singles, i.e. might as well hold nothing as far as where I'd be starting in commercial training. Back before they upped the minimum time requirements in the US to 1500 hrs to be a first officer, it used to be 250 (?...), I could have built that but building 1500 would eat up too much precious time at my age, especially with the downturn in general aviation in this country and fewer and fewer people taking flight lessons i.e. fewer CFI hours available. But I've also read where regionals or entry level freight dogging is a hellish lifestyle as far as schedules go, too, at least for the first several years until you get some seniority.
I'm actually in a position in life right now that would make becoming a professional pilot possible and be able to live on regional jet (or turbo prop) wages via stacking them on top of a defined benefits plan pension. Newly single as of a couple yrs ago, children grown up, be 52 in April and qualified to early-retire with a small pension for life that's nice to have but would require a 2nd career to elevate to a comfortable living. Hold a Private pilot license that's not current and only around 200 hrs tt in piston singles, i.e. might as well hold nothing as far as where I'd be starting in commercial training. Back before they upped the minimum time requirements in the US to 1500 hrs to be a first officer, it used to be 250 (?...), I could have built that but building 1500 would eat up too much precious time at my age, especially with the downturn in general aviation in this country and fewer and fewer people taking flight lessons i.e. fewer CFI hours available. But I've also read where regionals or entry level freight dogging is a hellish lifestyle as far as schedules go, too, at least for the first several years until you get some seniority.
Regionals are a miserable lifestyle for low wages. That awful entry level job is part of why there is currently a pilot shortage. They've also had stagnated careers for a decade now, but the dam is breaking: all the majors are hiring and the regionals find themselves having to pay retention and signing bonuses as well as raising wages.
Good.
It's about time the job started paying for those guys at the bottom.
Good.
It's about time the job started paying for those guys at the bottom.
The only thing I enjoyed in the regionals was flying the giant AD.. er CRJ.
Awesome video. The earth always looks beautiful from up there. I use to have to fly for work and always appreciated the experience. Letting down through those clouds, amongst the mountains, would make me think about, and hope, that all the navigation equipment was in calibration and working well.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Regionals are a miserable lifestyle for low wages. That awful entry level job is part of why there is currently a pilot shortage. They've also had stagnated careers for a decade now, but the dam is breaking: all the majors are hiring and the regionals find themselves having to pay retention and signing bonuses as well as raising wages.
Good.
It's about time the job started paying for those guys at the bottom.
Low wages as in ???
I thought pilots got paid per flight hour (wheels up).
Regionals are a miserable lifestyle for low wages. That awful entry level job is part of why there is currently a pilot shortage. They've also had stagnated careers for a decade now, but the dam is breaking: all the majors are hiring and the regionals find themselves having to pay retention and signing bonuses as well as raising wages.
Good.
It's about time the job started paying for those guys at the bottom.
Low wages as in ???
I thought pilots got paid per flight hour (wheels up).
Low wages as in $23/hr...wheels up to wheels down. That's what the commuters were paying.
So, in a 12 hour duty day, where you're in the cockpit for 12 hours, with no time to eat because you're running back and forth between little airports, you might get paid 5 hours, maybe 6. After all, you're only getting paid for flight time...not all the time you spend in flight planning, on the ramp, etc. It's analogous to paying a surgeon while he's in the OR, but not paying him when he's checking on patients, receiving patients in his office, or doing the paperwork...and then marveling at what he makes in the OR...the pay/hr doesn't even come close to the actual pay over time spent at work.
So, on a daily basis, you're paid just below a Starbucks barrista...and on an annual basis, you're lucky to clear $20K/year.
Why would anyone go $100K into debt (the cost of all the flight time needed to get the job) in order to get paid less per day, and less per year, than the folks working at Walmart or MacDonald's.
Yep. Very low pay.
And low sleep, lots of work, always rushed.
Just the kind of guy you would like making life/death decisions on your behalf...right?
So, in a 12 hour duty day, where you're in the cockpit for 12 hours, with no time to eat because you're running back and forth between little airports, you might get paid 5 hours, maybe 6. After all, you're only getting paid for flight time...not all the time you spend in flight planning, on the ramp, etc. It's analogous to paying a surgeon while he's in the OR, but not paying him when he's checking on patients, receiving patients in his office, or doing the paperwork...and then marveling at what he makes in the OR...the pay/hr doesn't even come close to the actual pay over time spent at work.
So, on a daily basis, you're paid just below a Starbucks barrista...and on an annual basis, you're lucky to clear $20K/year.
Why would anyone go $100K into debt (the cost of all the flight time needed to get the job) in order to get paid less per day, and less per year, than the folks working at Walmart or MacDonald's.
Yep. Very low pay.
And low sleep, lots of work, always rushed.
Just the kind of guy you would like making life/death decisions on your behalf...right?
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PBS Frontline did a segment on regional airlines and their pilots.
The public wants cheap airfares..... some pilots are willing to work for peanuts and pursue their dream of being a pilot.
I can blame someone for chasing their dream job. I agree they should make more considering the stress and skill set required.
The public wants cheap airfares..... some pilots are willing to work for peanuts and pursue their dream of being a pilot.
I can blame someone for chasing their dream job. I agree they should make more considering the stress and skill set required.
Correction
*Can't blame*
*Can't blame*
You get to fly and you don't have to spend money to do it.
You even get paid (not much) to do it.
Sitting in the front end of an RJ is every PP's wet dream.
You'll also likely be well positioned to move to a real airline in the near future.
Right seat in a 737 or single aisle Airbus will pay more and give you considerable advancement opportunities.
You even get paid (not much) to do it.
Sitting in the front end of an RJ is every PP's wet dream.
You'll also likely be well positioned to move to a real airline in the near future.
Right seat in a 737 or single aisle Airbus will pay more and give you considerable advancement opportunities.
Investing $100,000 to get paid $20,000 a year to start is not my idea of a good investment.
There is not a pilot shortage, but a pay shortage at the regional level. Sure, it's fun for a little while when you start, but when you do it day after day, year after year, making very low wages, flying weekends, holidays, missing birthdays - and you are still making little money for the effort - most Regional pilots start looking for a way out.
I've been an airline pilot for over 30 years now and was relieved when my son decided against an aviation career.
Only 30% of the major airline pilot applicants get hired- you would be suprised at the high quality, very experienced applicants that do not get hired for various reasons.
Just my .02
757 Guy
There is not a pilot shortage, but a pay shortage at the regional level. Sure, it's fun for a little while when you start, but when you do it day after day, year after year, making very low wages, flying weekends, holidays, missing birthdays - and you are still making little money for the effort - most Regional pilots start looking for a way out.
I've been an airline pilot for over 30 years now and was relieved when my son decided against an aviation career.
Only 30% of the major airline pilot applicants get hired- you would be suprised at the high quality, very experienced applicants that do not get hired for various reasons.
Just my .02
757 Guy
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You get to fly and you don't have to spend money to do it.
You even get paid (not much) to do it.
Sitting in the front end of an RJ is every PP's wet dream.
You'll also likely be well positioned to move to a real airline in the near future.
Right seat in a 737 or single aisle Airbus will pay more and give you considerable advancement opportunities.
You get to fly, you have over $100,000 in student loans, and you don't have an income with which to pay it back, much less eat or pay your rent?
It's a dream for the first month...you're flying for free...yay!
But then reality sets in, you have no income, and it turns into a nightmare.
A nightmare of commuting to a place that you can afford to live on $20K/year, because you certainly can't live in New York, or Atlanta, or any of the airline hubs, but you can afford to live in your parent's house. A nightmare of sleeping in your car because you missed the flight home, of shaving in an airport bathroom, of getting reassigned and spending a few extra days on the road living from your roll-aboard, of getting up at 6PM to work until 1AM, getting a 3 hour nap at the hotel and flying again at 5 AM...because that's "legal".
Those kids that got hired into the right seat of an RJ in 2002 are still there. No move-ups because for a decade the majors weren't hiring. They've gotten married, maybe even have some kids of their own, but they chose a spouse with a good career because the spouse is carrying the load financially.
Until the UAL contract in 2012, that right seat in the Airbus or 737 paid $27/hour...not much more than the RJ, and you pay your own living expenses for your first 8 weeks in training. But the Majors only wanted pilots with Pilot in Command time...so the kid in the right seat of the RJ couldn't get hired...he could only hope that the Captain to his left was willing to take the pay cut from RJ captain to go to the FO spot in the majors so that he could move up.
Not well-positioned.
Trapped.
Under a mountain of debt and with only one skill.
Many quit. Many moved on. A few suffered through a decade of miserable hours, low pay, poor sleep, and threats from management when they were fatigued at the end of sixteen hours in that RJ front seat that you think is so glamorous.
You're a Private Pilot? Great. Go get your ATP and you too can "live the dream".
The only bright spot is this: the dam has burst, and the majors are hiring. You'll only have to spend a few years in that RJ right seat now, not the decade that the ones before you did...but you will need an ATP to even apply for the job, so you had better start building your hours...
You get to fly and you don't have to spend money to do it.
You even get paid (not much) to do it.
Sitting in the front end of an RJ is every PP's wet dream.
You'll also likely be well positioned to move to a real airline in the near future.
Right seat in a 737 or single aisle Airbus will pay more and give you considerable advancement opportunities.
You get to fly, you have over $100,000 in student loans, and you don't have an income with which to pay it back, much less eat or pay your rent?
It's a dream for the first month...you're flying for free...yay!
But then reality sets in, you have no income, and it turns into a nightmare.
A nightmare of commuting to a place that you can afford to live on $20K/year, because you certainly can't live in New York, or Atlanta, or any of the airline hubs, but you can afford to live in your parent's house. A nightmare of sleeping in your car because you missed the flight home, of shaving in an airport bathroom, of getting reassigned and spending a few extra days on the road living from your roll-aboard, of getting up at 6PM to work until 1AM, getting a 3 hour nap at the hotel and flying again at 5 AM...because that's "legal".
Those kids that got hired into the right seat of an RJ in 2002 are still there. No move-ups because for a decade the majors weren't hiring. They've gotten married, maybe even have some kids of their own, but they chose a spouse with a good career because the spouse is carrying the load financially.
Until the UAL contract in 2012, that right seat in the Airbus or 737 paid $27/hour...not much more than the RJ, and you pay your own living expenses for your first 8 weeks in training. But the Majors only wanted pilots with Pilot in Command time...so the kid in the right seat of the RJ couldn't get hired...he could only hope that the Captain to his left was willing to take the pay cut from RJ captain to go to the FO spot in the majors so that he could move up.
Not well-positioned.
Trapped.
Under a mountain of debt and with only one skill.
Many quit. Many moved on. A few suffered through a decade of miserable hours, low pay, poor sleep, and threats from management when they were fatigued at the end of sixteen hours in that RJ front seat that you think is so glamorous.
You're a Private Pilot? Great. Go get your ATP and you too can "live the dream".
The only bright spot is this: the dam has burst, and the majors are hiring. You'll only have to spend a few years in that RJ right seat now, not the decade that the ones before you did...but you will need an ATP to even apply for the job, so you had better start building your hours...
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Only your last paragraph is relevant to the post that you replied to.
Now is a great time to be flying in either seat of an RJ given the shortage of ATPs to replace those retiring from the majors.
Also, during the heyday of the RJ, not all carriers were all that bad. Some actually had decent pay and a career path.
I could name names, but suffice it to say that one was hubbed at CVG and was acquired by a major.
Some folks were fortunate enough to have been trained and to have built turbine hours at taxpayer expense. The rest have had to endure a period of low wages and terrible hours.
It's no different for any other wage earner who aims for a highly paid position in a potentially highly paid proffesion.
Ask any doctor or partner in a law or accounting firm how they were hazed in their early days. These people also typically assume a lot of debt in attaining their credentials.
Finally, if I were thirty years younger, I might take a shot at flying as a career.
At least the scenery changes, although some of the scenery at some of the hubs, like PHL or LGA, say, isn't all that great.
Happy landings, Captain!
Now is a great time to be flying in either seat of an RJ given the shortage of ATPs to replace those retiring from the majors.
Also, during the heyday of the RJ, not all carriers were all that bad. Some actually had decent pay and a career path.
I could name names, but suffice it to say that one was hubbed at CVG and was acquired by a major.
Some folks were fortunate enough to have been trained and to have built turbine hours at taxpayer expense. The rest have had to endure a period of low wages and terrible hours.
It's no different for any other wage earner who aims for a highly paid position in a potentially highly paid proffesion.
Ask any doctor or partner in a law or accounting firm how they were hazed in their early days. These people also typically assume a lot of debt in attaining their credentials.
Finally, if I were thirty years younger, I might take a shot at flying as a career.
At least the scenery changes, although some of the scenery at some of the hubs, like PHL or LGA, say, isn't all that great.
Happy landings, Captain!
I should point out that I skipped the commuter life, I learned to fly in the Navy, and it was all PIC....there was a cost to that experience as well...lots of my friends never came back from a flight, and we were gone most of the time, and some folks expressed their objection to us flying over their country by shooting at us...
But I jumpseat on the commuters all the time, and the way that they are treated astonishes me...
It's awful.
And that's why there is a pilot shortage!
But I jumpseat on the commuters all the time, and the way that they are treated astonishes me...
It's awful.
And that's why there is a pilot shortage!
fdgc27,
CNN had an article about the so called pilot shortage with pilots forced to retire due to their age.
Lots of kids dream about making the big bucks... few make it to the top in their career field. You have new grad lawyers working for peanuts ($25 hr) with $120K in student loans. My nephew wants to got to law school cause another family member is a lawyer that bills their clients $500 an hour.
Dreaming is the easy part... making it to the top is extremely difficult (in any career field).
CNN had an article about the so called pilot shortage with pilots forced to retire due to their age.
Lots of kids dream about making the big bucks... few make it to the top in their career field. You have new grad lawyers working for peanuts ($25 hr) with $120K in student loans. My nephew wants to got to law school cause another family member is a lawyer that bills their clients $500 an hour.
Dreaming is the easy part... making it to the top is extremely difficult (in any career field).
I did the whole student flying thing over a decade ago. I would advise AGAINST it. I got a good education, I learned a lot. I had no life for many years after, though. I lived with my parents for a while. I didn't make squat. I flew when I wasn't working to get time *cough*money*cough*. Low pay and NO sleep. Just.. no.....
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