according to this: http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief15 - Extended Oil Change Intervals.pdf
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
Extended Oil Change Interval shorter engine life
- Thread starter friendly_jacek
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I think this sums it up:
"With all of this in mind, exactly how often should you change you oil? We would guess about every 3 months or 3000 miles, unless you want your car to last longer, then change it as often as it looks, smells or feels dirty to you. If you want to play with extended oil change intervals, at least be honest with yourself that the reason you are doing so is because of the hassle and short-term cost of oil changes, not the long-term cost or benefit."
Are you kidding??
"With all of this in mind, exactly how often should you change you oil? We would guess about every 3 months or 3000 miles, unless you want your car to last longer, then change it as often as it looks, smells or feels dirty to you. If you want to play with extended oil change intervals, at least be honest with yourself that the reason you are doing so is because of the hassle and short-term cost of oil changes, not the long-term cost or benefit."
Are you kidding??
Cars already fall apart around the engine. What more does someone want?
They say:
There are two main ways to remove debris from engine oil: excellent filtration and replacing the old oil with new clean
oil. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) published an excellent paper1
in which the relationship between fine
particulates in oil and engine wear is established. The SAE states there is a steady increase in wear metals and debris
as the oil stays in service. The conclusions point to the importance of maintaining good oil filtration, but in addition,
changing the oil itself is necessary in order to get rid of liquid contaminants and renew the additive package.
Do They forgot other means of "filtration", like centrifugation settling for decantation?
Good oil can be decantled to get those high miles of long drains.
There are two main ways to remove debris from engine oil: excellent filtration and replacing the old oil with new clean
oil. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) published an excellent paper1
in which the relationship between fine
particulates in oil and engine wear is established. The SAE states there is a steady increase in wear metals and debris
as the oil stays in service. The conclusions point to the importance of maintaining good oil filtration, but in addition,
changing the oil itself is necessary in order to get rid of liquid contaminants and renew the additive package.
Do They forgot other means of "filtration", like centrifugation settling for decantation?
Good oil can be decantled to get those high miles of long drains.
I guess those guys havn't seen slalom44's 41k OCI and 313k on the engine.
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
I have a Silverado with 340k miles on a 5k OCI with conventional that says otherwise. Heck the my old Volvo got a change nearly every 7k with conventional and I replace it with 289k.
Well, there is uoa after uoa on this forum which seem to show that oil lubricates better and better and filter filters better and better---until they don't.
I'm not even willing to agree that there is even a theoretical advantage to an early oil change.
As a practical matter, we are better off devoting ourselves to maintaining the appearance of the car, inside and out. No question about that in my mind.
I'm not even willing to agree that there is even a theoretical advantage to an early oil change.
As a practical matter, we are better off devoting ourselves to maintaining the appearance of the car, inside and out. No question about that in my mind.
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As previously stated, the cars fall apart around even a reasonably well maintained engine.
Mitsubishi with the turbodiesel Triton ute knowing this, and that they were trying to appeal to fleet buyers (and families) extended the OCI to 15,000km, with dino, with no severe service...Toyota were 10,000 and 5,000km respectively (and $12-14k more up front).
Mitsubishi then offered a 100,000km powertrain warranty.
My brother's business switched immediately, as they had less scheduled downtime, and the longest warranty in the field.
Mitsubishi were obviously playing the odds, and thought the odds were strongly in their favour.
Mitsubishi with the turbodiesel Triton ute knowing this, and that they were trying to appeal to fleet buyers (and families) extended the OCI to 15,000km, with dino, with no severe service...Toyota were 10,000 and 5,000km respectively (and $12-14k more up front).
Mitsubishi then offered a 100,000km powertrain warranty.
My brother's business switched immediately, as they had less scheduled downtime, and the longest warranty in the field.
Mitsubishi were obviously playing the odds, and thought the odds were strongly in their favour.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
The chart is comparing 12K mile OCI with 25K mile OCI. The reference article was written in 2001, based on a study presumably done before that, and presumably on mineral oil, since they did not mention it was synthetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
I'm not surprised that they noticed issues with running API SJ (or equivalent) mineral oil out to 25K miles, regardless of large sump size.
Here is that reference article:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/238/extended-oil-drains
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
The chart is comparing 12K mile OCI with 25K mile OCI. The reference article was written in 2001, based on a study presumably done before that, and presumably on mineral oil, since they did not mention it was synthetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
I'm not surprised that they noticed issues with running API SJ (or equivalent) mineral oil out to 25K miles, regardless of large sump size.
Here is that reference article:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/238/extended-oil-drains
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
My 1994 LS400 has more than 370k miles on odometer(average 17.5k miles a year), its OCI's are: 7-10k/6mos with conventional and 15-20k/12mos with synthetic, the FCI is 12 months. The engine is running very good without any problem other than consuming 1/2 qt per 3-4k miles since new. I don't know the engine internal because it still has original valve cover gaskets and never open.
The oil(dino and syn) of 15-20 years wasn't as good as now, but with reasonable OCI around manufacture recommendation the engine can lasted a long time, no need to do extreme short OCI for engine to last 300-400k miles.
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
My 1994 LS400 has more than 370k miles on odometer(average 17.5k miles a year), its OCI's are: 7-10k/6mos with conventional and 15-20k/12mos with synthetic, the FCI is 12 months. The engine is running very good without any problem other than consuming 1/2 qt per 3-4k miles since new. I don't know the engine internal because it still has original valve cover gaskets and never open.
The oil(dino and syn) of 15-20 years wasn't as good as now, but with reasonable OCI around manufacture recommendation the engine can lasted a long time, no need to do extreme short OCI for engine to last 300-400k miles.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
So, if there's no real world testing for guidance then a few extra oil changes are cheap insurance. It's probably true that to get your oil clean a good method is to just change it.
If you don't keep a car beyond the warranty none of this makes any difference anyhow. You follow the schedule and you're done.
If you don't keep a car beyond the warranty none of this makes any difference anyhow. You follow the schedule and you're done.
Nothing wrong with short OCI's.
Longer OCI's with vigilant overall maintenance, UOA's, and premium oils and filters may make sense for some.
Neglect kills engines.
Long OCI's can give maintenance lazy owners an excuse to neglect their vehicles.
But I'm not talking about most folks here on BITOG.
Longer OCI's with vigilant overall maintenance, UOA's, and premium oils and filters may make sense for some.
Neglect kills engines.
Long OCI's can give maintenance lazy owners an excuse to neglect their vehicles.
But I'm not talking about most folks here on BITOG.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
The chart is comparing 12K mile OCI with 25K mile OCI. The reference article was written in 2001, based on a study presumably done before that, and presumably on mineral oil, since they did not mention it was synthetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
I'm not surprised that they noticed issues with running API SJ (or equivalent) mineral oil out to 25K miles, regardless of large sump size.
Here is that reference article:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/238/extended-oil-drains
exactly, my question deals with this very point. i don't agree with rest of the article as the ZDDPplus is concerned with sale of additives and they have a conflict of interest on the OCI issue.
the specific issue is this:
Quote:
Increased Ring Wear and Reduced Engine Power
In extending the oil drain interval, there is an increase in the oil contamination, combined with a reduction in the oil base reserve (BN). The end result can be a loss in power. In severe field testing in Canada with 430 hp engines, it was found that extending the oil drain from 12,000 miles to 25,000 miles combined with a reduced sump volume resulted in a loss of power, as measured on a chassis dynamometer (Figure 5). This loss was believed to result from increased ring face and groove wear, which increased engine blow-by.
not sure if this is an issue with soot loading or the 10% decrease in oil volume.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
see figure 1 from reference 9.
true or false?
The chart is comparing 12K mile OCI with 25K mile OCI. The reference article was written in 2001, based on a study presumably done before that, and presumably on mineral oil, since they did not mention it was synthetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
I'm not surprised that they noticed issues with running API SJ (or equivalent) mineral oil out to 25K miles, regardless of large sump size.
Here is that reference article:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/238/extended-oil-drains
exactly, my question deals with this very point. i don't agree with rest of the article as the ZDDPplus is concerned with sale of additives and they have a conflict of interest on the OCI issue.
the specific issue is this:
Quote:
Increased Ring Wear and Reduced Engine Power
In extending the oil drain interval, there is an increase in the oil contamination, combined with a reduction in the oil base reserve (BN). The end result can be a loss in power. In severe field testing in Canada with 430 hp engines, it was found that extending the oil drain from 12,000 miles to 25,000 miles combined with a reduced sump volume resulted in a loss of power, as measured on a chassis dynamometer (Figure 5). This loss was believed to result from increased ring face and groove wear, which increased engine blow-by.
not sure if this is an issue with soot loading or the 10% decrease in oil volume.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
The article is poorly written and seems biased. In science we let the data tell the story. The article seems to have a purpose of Jiffy-Lube paying them to support the 3000 mile OCI. I only read it once and don't feel like reading it again but are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles? My 2004 Rav4 has a change oil light and it comes on around every 5000 miles and I'm assuming it's based on oil specs from 11 years. So, that's when I change the oil. Toyota recommends conventional oil and says to keep the same OCI even if you use synthetic oil.
The article seems to say, OCI every 3000 miles unless your car maker recommends differently. They all recommend differently and I trust the car manufacturers. I don't think they would want their cars to suffer premature failure so you will have to purchase another car. That certainly isn't Toyota's marketing plan. They want their cars to last a long time so they'll gain market share.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
The article is poorly written and seems biased. In science we let the data tell the story. The article seems to have a purpose of Jiffy-Lube paying them to support the 3000 mile OCI. I only read it once and don't feel like reading it again but are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles? My 2004 Rav4 has a change oil light and it comes on around every 5000 miles and I'm assuming it's based on oil specs from 11 years. So, that's when I change the oil. Toyota recommends conventional oil and says to keep the same OCI even if you use synthetic oil.
The article seems to say, OCI every 3000 miles unless your car maker recommends differently. They all recommend differently and I trust the car manufacturers. I don't think they would want their cars to suffer premature failure so you will have to purchase another car. That certainly isn't Toyota's marketing plan. They want their cars to last a long time so they'll gain market share.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles?
Sounds like it to me.
are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles?
Sounds like it to me.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
The article is poorly written and seems biased. In science we let the data tell the story. The article seems to have a purpose of Jiffy-Lube paying them to support the 3000 mile OCI. I only read it once and don't feel like reading it again but are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles? My 2004 Rav4 has a change oil light and it comes on around every 5000 miles and I'm assuming it's based on oil specs from 11 years. So, that's when I change the oil. Toyota recommends conventional oil and says to keep the same OCI even if you use synthetic oil.
The article seems to say, OCI every 3000 miles unless your car maker recommends differently. They all recommend differently and I trust the car manufacturers. I don't think they would want their cars to suffer premature failure so you will have to purchase another car. That certainly isn't Toyota's marketing plan. They want their cars to last a long time so they'll gain market share.
One of the studies they cite is dated 1988. That seems a bit dated to me, and makes me wonder if its conclusions are still pertinent.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Leo99
We will hypothesize that the group which changes their oil every 15,000 miles will get an engine life of 150,000 miles before the car needs replacement, and the group changing oil every 3000 miles can go 300,000 miles before the engine fails. With a modern vehicle, 300,000 miles is not an unrealistic engine life expectancy, given proper maintenance.
That is a huge delta between life expectancy based on OCI. Personally, I use conventional oil and change every 5k miles.
Hypothesize based on what? What data do they have to prove their hypothesis? What oil does it assume? Obviously it's one thing to do 15K OCI on mineral vs 15K OCI on quality synthetic designed for long drains.
The article is poorly written and seems biased. In science we let the data tell the story. The article seems to have a purpose of Jiffy-Lube paying them to support the 3000 mile OCI. I only read it once and don't feel like reading it again but are they comparing conventional oil at 3000 vs conventional oil at 15000 miles? My 2004 Rav4 has a change oil light and it comes on around every 5000 miles and I'm assuming it's based on oil specs from 11 years. So, that's when I change the oil. Toyota recommends conventional oil and says to keep the same OCI even if you use synthetic oil.
The article seems to say, OCI every 3000 miles unless your car maker recommends differently. They all recommend differently and I trust the car manufacturers. I don't think they would want their cars to suffer premature failure so you will have to purchase another car. That certainly isn't Toyota's marketing plan. They want their cars to last a long time so they'll gain market share.
One of the studies they cite is dated 1988. That seems a bit dated to me, and makes me wonder if its conclusions are still pertinent.
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