Do bypass filters reduce UOA usefullness?

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Exactly Dnewton.


If Bp filtration and oil changes both net the same result and show no appreciable reduction in wear combining both methods then it only makes sense to implement the less costly method so cost per mile is minimized.
If the engines aren't living longer when both oil purification practices are implemented then the only thing that's happening is more money per service which is dumb.
Spending more money to achieve no gain. Makes no sense. So rather than spend money irresponsibly you implement the less costly practice because the end result is the same either way,so if you can spend less to achieve the desired result what sense is there to double the price of maintenance when there is no change in longevity.
 
Well, regardless of whether it provides engine longevity or not, i installed the bypass filtration for extended OCI (hopefully out to 60,000km at least). Reduced wear was just an added bonus for me, if it is actually true.

DNewton, i just want to be able see conclusive evidence myself of like fleet studies, or controlled simulation.
 
Hey - I don't want to dissuade you from trying stuff. Nothing wrong with that! Experimentation is much of the fun.


BP filters are great tools, and if you're going to run OCIs out to 60k-km or more, then you're on the right track. But you have to balance the overall costs and let us know. There are:
initial costs of system and installation
continuing costs of elements
continuing costs of UOAs
continuing costs of top off (versus a simple OCI)


I like BP systems; I DESPERATELY wanted one several years ago. I talked with Gary Allen (our departed member) a lot about them; he was an Amsoil dealer. But ultimately I just could not find conclusive proof that my situation would be positively affected by use of one. Thing is this: I can admit that my wants did not justify the purchase; wants are not the same as needs.

Some folks have the right mentality and situation to use them correctly.
Other folks simply use them as toys.
 
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Yes, so far i have been having to add about a 1/3 qt every 5000km, pretty consistent so far for consumption, not too much, not too little, just enough (imo) to freshen up the add pack. I would like to be able to hit 100,000km really, which might be doable with my operating habits and care. Oil pan heater and block heater along with consistent long trips (400km+) once or twice a month.

I would like to keep UOA to a minimum, perhaps doubling mileage between UOA. 5K, 20K, 40K, 80K, etc

I would love to share my results with everyone for reference as there are only a handful of people posting about their BP setups.
 
I think the safe reasonable extensions will only be limited by the codemnation limits you've set or chosen. I like your committment to the concept!

As for the UOA frequency, that's not one place you can skimp. I would recommend perhaps every 15k km, no more than 20k km. I only mention this because I guess your comment "perhaps doubling between UOA." seemed a bit misleading, at least to me. If your intent was to UOA at 5k km, then at 20k km, then every 20k km afterward, I'd agree with that.

I would NOT take one at 20k km, then double to 40k km, then double again to 80k km. Too much time in between.
 
Perhaps you are right about every 20k km. Maybe 30k km? We will see when I send an oil sample in at 20k, which should be in 3-4 months.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
ihatetochange oil -
1) hope your brother is doing better; stay focused on family first
2) please keep the RSP out of threads; against our site policy

Rational Thought Quiz ...
Q1: can engine longevity be positively affected by using superior filtration? Yes.
Q2: can engine longevity be positively affected by managing OCI durations? Yes.
Q3: if Q1 and Q2 can afford the same net effect, is the effect unique? No.
Q4: if Q1 and Q2 can afford the same net effect, what delineates the choice of one over another? Cost of application.

Rational Thought Statement ...
Because Q1 and Q2 offer the same result, they cannot be logically separated due to performance, therefore the correct decision is one of fiscal ROI.

Now - to avoid the uncomfortable sense of animosity, I do want to assure you I see this as a friendly joust of minds and not personal attacks. In that mindset, I offer this; a sign hangs in my offices that reads:

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you!


Mr DNewton you appear to be knowledge and expert in your field however I am inspired to provide feedback regarding to comments you made and the way these were phrased.

The RSP regarding Dyson Oil Analyis is fair in the way it was presented the VAO and UOA forums mentioned these on many occasions so it is unclear to me what is the issue here.

The sign that you offered which hangs in your office needs to be updated IMO. Obviously the way you present and dissect the information and recommend the information you provide shows you have a strong technical background in science specializing in some form of research.

Not everyone can understand some concepts I would rather you take the time to consider changing the sign to, "I can explain it to you, anything that is unclear or you do not understand let me know I will try to clarify it for you in a simpler way."

For example rational though quiz and statements could easily have been rewritten I had to reread several times although I knew what you point was.

And even if you don't change the sign get rid of the ! exclamation mark on the end as it adds no value to the point being made IMO.
 
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filter cartridge

Action of the cartridge: The filtration cartridge acts by both absorption and adsorption in a continuous recycling process. The long fibres of the paper attract the water formed either through the combustion process or by condensation and absorb it like a sponge. At the same time, it rejects the larger, oil molecules which are forced to pass between the tight windings of the cartridge. As the oil passes through the cartridge, minute carbon, wear metal, and silicon particles are extracted from the oil and adhere to the many surfaces of the filter – a process known as adsorption. Thus, by removing water, the cartridge inhibits the production of acids which both degrade the oil and cause excessive wear. The simultaneous removal of minute contaminants as they occur enables the oil life to be extended within [beyond?] its original operating specifications.

From Kleen Oil website. No need to explain it, as I was merely trying to recall something that I didn't read too thoroughly...
 
Have you read my normalcy article? There is CLEAR, UNDISPUTABLE evidence of how UOAs track wear.
[/quote]

Where is this proof? I can find no link that correlates UOA wear particles, as measured in a Blackstone UOA, to actual measured engine wear. There is a link that correlates UOA Fe wear particles to mileage accumulated on the oil in your normalcy article.
 
Once upon a time the "conventional wisdom" was that the earth was flat.

I categorically reject everything you have stated Mr. Newton.

"Many original equipment manufacturers have accepted the indisputable evidence from numerous field and laboratory trials that oil cleanliness has a major effect on wear within their equipment. Some of them are now specifying how clean must be the oil used in their equipment if warranty claims are to be honored. For example Caterpillar specify new oil to have a particle count of ISO 16/13. If new oil is above this level of contamination they will not warranty their equipment. When new oil from a leading international oil manufacturer was tested before putting it into new Caterpillar equipment the solid particle contamination was found to be 17/14. This was new oil from a never previously opened container. In this case the new oil had to be further filtered to bring it to below the required specification."

Table No. 2 is a list the recommended target oil contamination levels for close tolerance equipment from a survey of hydraulic oil equipment and oil filter manufacturers.

http://www.lubrication.tv/art06/oil_how_clean.htm

You have openly stated on this forum that you have absolutely no experience with bypass filters; having never held one in your hand. How many of the "10,000 UOA" you have access to contain particle counts?

If particle counts are NOT part of your data that you cannot reveal due to a "gentlemen's agreement", while I might respect your gentlemen's agreement, as far as I'm concerned, you've got a pile of confetti.
 
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You are incorrect in some of you statements.

I never said I have no experience with BP systems. I have said I don't have them on my personal equipment at home. I have PLENTY of experience with filtration of many different types from years of running PM programs at Ford.

I also never said I've not held one (a BP unit) in my hand; please show that statement from the post I would have claimed that. Actually, I own a BP (Frantz) system at home; it's just not installed on anything.

I am well aware of what PCs can and cannot tell us. Are you? PCs are a tool like many others; they have benefits and limitations. PCs can tell us about size, but nothing about composition. UOAs tell us about composition, but nothing about size (other than the inference that they are 5um or smaller to be seen in ICP technology).


Your example of the Caterpillar oil cleanliness is a perfect example of my comments and my position. Once oil is "clean enough", then making it cleaner is not a necessity and has little if any ROI.

Go back and read my statements please, but don't put in your inference into my words.
 
Originally Posted By: carock
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Have you read my normalcy article? There is CLEAR, UNDISPUTABLE evidence of how UOAs track wear.


Where is this proof? I can find no link that correlates UOA wear particles, as measured in a Blackstone UOA, to actual measured engine wear. There is a link that correlates UOA Fe wear particles to mileage accumulated on the oil in your normalcy article.



SAE study 2007-01-4133 shows that there is a solid correlation between ICP spectral analysis and proton beam bombardment techniques. Additionally, the study also shows correlation between ICP spectral data and IRRAS (infrared reflection absorption spectroscopy). UOAs do track wear accurately.

SAE study 881825 used both ICP spectral analysis and component weight (mass) change. They established that there was relative correlation between ICP and elemental mass weight change data. Whereas they do not read the same measurements, they do exhibit a very close relative shift; this indicates that UOAs do indeed track wear rate changes accurately.

There are other studies that show UOAs are a useful tool in tracking wear data.

Notably, measurements of clearances actually has a poor reputation in terms of R&R. Yes - many engine builders use this technique; it's cheap and easy when the engine is already apart. But it's not a reliable means of tracking wear rates. It is good to establish machining and assembly clearances. But it's not good for tracking wear (other than visual clues such as streaking, galling, etc, but those are not something that is quantifiable in magnitude; they are subjective and not objective criteria). This was discussed briefly in SAE 881925.


Admittedly, UOAs are not a one-size-fits-all answer for everything. They have limitations. But that is true of a lot of other techniques to measure wear as well. UOAs are, however, one of the least expensive methods. The other methods such as IRRAS and proton bombardment are much more expensive. And engine tear-downs to measure component weight (mass change) are time/cost prohibitive. UOAs are cheap, quick and reasonably accurate. Are they perfect? Nope. Are they an excellent indirect view of equipment wear? Yes - absolutely.

If you don't think UOAs are worthwhile, then why does almost every popular entity use them for wear rate analysis? Blackstone, Polaris, Dyson, Noria, etc, etc. The OEMs typically have larger resource pools (time and money) and so they get to play with bigger, more expensive equipment. But they have done studies that show UOAs are a reasonably good tool to track wear data.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3


If you don't think UOAs are worthwhile, then why does almost every popular entity use them for wear rate analysis? Blackstone, Polaris, Dyson, Noria, etc, etc. The OEMs typically have larger resource pools (time and money) and so they get to play with bigger, more expensive equipment. But they have done studies that show UOAs are a reasonably good tool to track wear data.


It looks like time has marched on! In 2005-2006 I contacted Blackstone, Polaris, and Dyson about performing an extensive series of tests to prove if a new line of bypass filters did any good in gasoline engines or not. All of them said UOA's could not be used to accomplish that task. I am completely prepared to believe what you say, but it does come as a surprise ten years later. I always found it curious that they never really explained why UOA's would not work other than one of them said the UOA's were only accurate plus/minus 50 percent.
 
I'm not aware of any statistical study done on a UOA's accuracy. I would LOVE to design/participate in a study that got down to the nitty-gritty of UOA accuracy. Do a real R&R analysis; that would be awesome. Alas - I doubt any typical UOA service wants to find out how good or bad they really are; may hurt sales. And the cash outlay belies my level of interest; I cannot afford $1000 or more for UOAs in the interest of science solely to established their performance level.


Just like this thread started out many pages ago, there are some things that are not impossible, but difficult to prove. So we exist in a world of theory in some manner here ...

Does a BP system affect UOAs? Several plausible answers, based upon your position of interest:

- Most BP filters commonly available for automotive apps are reasonably effective (essentially absolute) at 3um and above. But they are not as effective below 2um. However, as they load up, they will become absolute towards ever smaller particle sizes, because unlike a FF filter, they don't "have to" flow. They can be allowed to blind off. Of course as they load up ever more, they become more efficient. But the effectiveness drops off because their flow rate ever dwindles, leaving more and more in the FF stream. It's a catch-22 situation. This is very reasonable common sense. It could easily be proven with enough PCs collected with a high frequency.
- most ICP spectral analysis can see from sub-micro up to 3um very well, and up to 5um reasonably well. Past 5um the ability of ICP drops dramatically. Each system and machine is going to be a bit different, but these are reasonably accepted as valid.
- Since BP filters can remove particles 3um and larger, and ICP can see particles 3um and larger, then it's very reasonably to believe that BP filters will remove some portion of wear particle evidence, and do so with even greater resolve as they mature. The issue is that it's very hard to know just how much this has effect. As I mentioned, it will have a great deal to do with the effective RATE of particulate removal as that filter media matures; it's not a static process - it's ever evolving throughout it's life cycle.

There are plenty of studies that show UOAs can reasonably detect "normal" wear rates (that which can be seen within it's spectrum). UOAs will never see anything larger than 5um, so they "sample" the overall wear. But that's OK, because we still see "normal" in terms of a ratio of overall wear. Unless there is a catastrophic acute event, the wear rate seen in a UOA will accurately reflect the overall wear rate shifts in trending. That is what the studies establish. When they compare/contrast the wear rates of UOA evidence to that of other means (rad bombardment; IRRAS; mass weight; etc) they see good correlation. They may not come up with the same values, but they do show the same relative shifts in wear trends. Hence, a UOA is reasonably accurate at predicting wear rates and trends.


PC analysis does a fantastic job of viewing the size and quantity of particulate. Unfortunately it does nothing to tell us about composition of the particulate.
UOAs can tell us about the composition of the wear metals, but only in context of % in the viable range, and speaks nothing to size.


My "normalcy" article clearly has data that shows undeniable proof that wear rates drop as the sump matures. Does not matter how much particulate is present in terms of filtration. Wear metals speak to the relative wear shift. In a FF-only system (a traditional filter system), there is no ability of the FF filter to have any reasonable effect on a UOA; they simply cannot filter down into that range (below 5um) with any ability to shift the data whatsoever. A BP system does have the ability to shift the data, but we'll never know by how much because no one has done such a study to my knowledge. I would love to design the DoE and preside over one, but I don't have the time/cash to do so.


UOAs most certainly have value. But they are not perfect. Same can be said for PCs, etc. But, used together, along with other tools like visual observations, we can get a fairly decent idea of the overall wear trends of the equipment. UOAs absolutely must be used with the understanding of their benefits and limitations. And the data they provide is nearly worthless unless one understands and has access to the "normal" distribution of the data, it's range and trends and variance. If you don't know this, a UOA is really handicapped. UOAs are a direct view of lubricant health, but only an indirect view of equipment health. But as I stated elsewhere in this thread, they are a nice low-cost tool that is proven reasonably accurate. Some of the alternatives may be a tad more reliable, but are grossly over-expensive and out of typical range for most folks in time and money.

If someone is looking for a perfect answer, they're not going to find it here at BITOG, because of the nature of the tools we have at hand.




On a side note, I desperately want to do this in the scope of tire alignment as well. My personal "feeling" (admittedly an emotional position) is that tire service centers that do alignments have incredibly poor R&R stats. But I cannot seem to find one that wants to participate, and I surely don't have the money to pay for 30 to 50 alignments over a weekend.



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Originally Posted By: dnewton3

On a side note, I desperately want to do this in the scope of tire alignment as well. My personal "feeling" (admittedly an emotional position) is that tire service centers that do alignments have incredibly poor R&R stats. But I cannot seem to find one that wants to participate, and I surely don't have the money to pay for 30 to 50 alignments over a weekend.



.


I can save you the effort. Generous Motors did a good study/survey the 1990's and found that 4 out of 5 alignment stores were incapable of setting alignment within specifications because their equipment was so far out of calibration. One of the reasons for this is that the calibration schemes for the optical racks often assume that the wheelbase is exactly the same on both sides of the car. It just ain't so!

As a side note, when I worked on cars full time, there was an individual who worked at Jeff Jio's Firestone in Mountain View California named George who did their alignments. George's eyeball was so finely calibrated that he could walk up to a car, eyeball it, and tell you what the alignment was. I didn't believe it. George went to New Dimensions and correctly guessed the alignment numbers on three cars in a row that we put up on a Hunter alignment rack. Unbelievable until you see it!
 
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