Any idea why we have 5W-30 oils with HTHS >= 3.5?

[finmile]

Hi all,

I've been reading the posts of the BITOG forum for a few months now and what a great place this is! I've learned so much already. But now I decided that it's time for me to register to this site and post a question to which I haven't found a thorough answer yet.

So, the question is: What's the idea of 5W-30 oils with HTHS >= 3.5?

My question arises from the fact that my Nissan Primera's Owner's Manual recommends to use "API SG, SH or SJ, ILSAC GF-I or GF-II, ACEA A2-96" oil with 5W-30 grade (also xW-40 and xW-50 grades are allowed).

The ACEA A2-96 issue 3 specification requires that the HTHS must be at least 3.5 as seen in the ACEA Oil Sequences 2002 (Note: I couldn't find ACEA A2-96 issue 1 anywhere from the internet, but I'm assuming here that the issue 1 has also the same HTHS requirement).

As we can see from here the HTHS viscosity is the value which dictates engine oil's real viscosity, not the KV100.

Any idea why Nissan recommends such a goofy combination, a 5W-30 oil with HTHS >= 3.5? I don't think that the reason could be the same as in the relatively new VW504.00/507.00 specification (0W-30 or 5W-30 oil with HTHS >= 3.5), as the Owner's Manual refers to an age-old ACEA spec from 1996.

My guess for the VW specification is that it tries to force the oil manufacturers to use better quality VIIs (with less temporary and permanent shear) than what the 5W-40 oils have. And thus the VW504.00/VW507.00 oils would be more suitable for extended OCIs. Could this be the case?

I'm keen to hear your views and opinions on this subject!

 

[Shannow]

Nissan specify some goofy stuff...they shouldn't have an ACEA specification that requires over 3.5 in the same sentence as an ILSAC energy conserving oil.

a 5W30 with HTHS 3.5 and over is my idea of a good oil.

5W30 will likely have a stronger basestock, less VII (and with it better shear stability, lower volatility et al) than an equivalent 5W40.

3.5 is the "natural" HTHS for a 30 grade, in that a mineral SAE 30 is around 3.5 HTHS, so it's not really that strange.

 

[supercity]

Surely they mean it's an alternative, not a requirement.

I came across a car the other day that specified a C3 5w30 but also allowed, C1, C2 and C4 as alternatives.

 

[BobsArmory]

Want to see something? Look at Redline Oil 5w-30, it has an HTHS of 3.7! Wowsers. I wonder why they don't just call it a 40 and be done with it.

 

[Trav]

Most 5w30 oils sold in Europe are +3.5 anyway. Mobil 1 5w30 is 3.56. For Americans to get that without going into boutique oils they need to use something like Mobil 1 0w40 with 3.8 which is close enough.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Most 5w30 oils sold in Europe are +3.5 anyway. Mobil 1 5w30 is 3.56. For Americans to get that without going into boutique oils they need to use something like Mobil 1 0w40 with 3.8 which is close enough.


Yup, also the BMW dealer 5w-30 has an HTHS >=3.5cP.

 

[toneydoc]

Yea I have an idea. May or may not be right.

Goes like this. Oil and petrol are expensive in Europe. More so than here in the USA. When I was stationed in Europe, gas cost about 2-2.4 times cost in USA.

Oil for engines was 3-4 times more expensive IIRC. Folks in Europe can and do run their engines and cars at somewhat high revs and speeds depending on where you are.
The engines tend to have smaller displacements and rev higher under normal operations.

The folks and car makers recommend longer OCI in Europe due to oil change cost and the fact you do not want to change it earlier than necessary due to cost of product.

So to add some stability and shear resistance to the longer OCI, Nissam recommends that 5w30 and HTHS >3.5 so the oil can stay in use and tolerate the demands placed on it.

Just my 2 cents of reasoning

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
5W30 will likely have a stronger basestock, less VII (and with it better shear stability, lower volatility et al) than an equivalent 5W40.


So, by lowering the viscosity grade from 5W-40 to 5W-30 but keeping the HTHS at 3.5 you end up having an oil with better properties but with unchanged viscosity.

Cool

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: toneydoc
Yea I have an idea. May or may not be right.

Goes like this. Oil and petrol are expensive in Europe. More so than here in the USA. When I was stationed in Europe, gas cost about 2-2.4 times cost in USA.

Oil for engines was 3-4 times more expensive IIRC. Folks in Europe can and do run their engines and cars at somewhat high revs and speeds depending on where you are.
The engines tend to have smaller displacements and rev higher under normal operations.

The folks and car makers recommend longer OCI in Europe due to oil change cost and the fact you do not want to change it earlier than necessary due to cost of product.

So to add some stability and shear resistance to the longer OCI, Nissam recommends that 5w30 and HTHS >3.5 so the oil can stay in use and tolerate the demands placed on it.

Just my 2 cents of reasoning


Yes, this could explain why the Owner's Manual lists both European (higher HTHS) and US (lower HTHS) standards.

My Nissan has QG16DE engine which is the little brother of the QG18DE engine. Both of these engines can be found from Nissan Primeras sold in Europe. Also, the bigger 1.8 liter ones can be found in Nissan Sentras sold in the USA (model years 2000-2006).

So maybe that is the reason Nissan did list all the three specifications (ACEA, API and ILSAC) in the Owner's Manual: The same engine can be found in cars sold in two continents.

The recommended OCI for Primeras with QG16DE and QG18DE engines is 15,000 km (about 9,300 miles).

The recommended OCI for Nissan Sentras with QG18DE engine is 7.500 miles (as shown in this link).

So, maybe we can call this mystery solved...?

 

[fdcg27]

These are two different ways of measuring viscosity.
Easy answer.

 

[Kamele0N]

@finmile...shorter OCI for USA driven Nissan engines could be even due to lower quality of fuel there

I don't insist on that...but shorter intervals on different continents are often persribed due to lack of quality of "something"

 

[Garak]

Also, a basic ILSAC rated 5w-30 may not be able to go for as long an OCI as an A3/B3 A3/B4 or an E6/E7/E9 lube, in the same applications, all other things being equal.

 

[PhillipM]

Originally Posted By: toneydoc

Goes like this. Oil and petrol are expensive in Europe. More so than here in the USA. When I was stationed in Europe, gas cost about 2-2.4 times cost in USA.

Oil for engines was 3-4 times more expensive IIRC. Folks in Europe can and do run their engines and cars at somewhat high revs and speeds depending on where you are.
The engines tend to have smaller displacements and rev higher under normal operations.


You're not wrong there, makes me cry when I see what you guys get away with paying for fuel and oil! And yes, even with modern vehicles, some of the smaller engines in Primara's and similar sized vehicles will be turning 3500-4000rpm at cruising speeds on the motorway/highways.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Originally Posted By: toneydoc
Folks in Europe can and do run their engines and cars at somewhat high revs and speeds depending on where you are.
The engines tend to have smaller displacements and rev higher under normal operations.


And yes, even with modern vehicles, some of the smaller engines in Primara's and similar sized vehicles will be turning 3500-4000rpm at cruising speeds on the motorway/highways.


So this could be the reason why Nissan specified a low HTHS Energy Conserving oil (ILSAC GF-2) for the US market, but not a low HTHS Fuel Economy oil (ACEA A1-96) for the European market?

Because in Europe the revs are higher (and there are Autobahns in Germany)?

 

[DrAdmin]

Nissan same model, same engine
US 3750 Miles (6035.04KM)
CAN: 6000 KM
EU: 15000 KM
non EU country in Europe : 6000 KM

Especially funny one Norway = 6K; Finland = 15K; absolutely same climate and so ...

So from my point of view it a pure marketing, and follow rules of EU

 

[Joe90_guy]

As I recall, the whole '3.5 min HTHS thing' originated from some work MB did on bearing wear decades ago. Back then, Europe would have been using 15W40, 10W40 & 20W50 oils so the limit wouldn't of mattered particularly much.

The limit clearly got adopted into the first ACEA oil specs that came out in the early '90s. We would by then have started to see the emergence of Euro 5W30 & 0W30 oils. As both would have been full synthetic, meeting the 3.5 limit would not have been a big deal. Do remember that Euro oils are unencumbered by the need to pass the severe fuel economy tests you have in the US. In Europe we have addressed fuel economy with highly taxed fuel, smaller/lighter cars, diesel cars and, dare I say it...having people that weigh less!

The Euro OEMs have been tardy in 'fixing' the 3.5 limit which most people acknowledge is archaic and way too conservative. They have allowed 2.9 min oils first with A1/B1, the A5/B5 and latterly with the low SAP 'C' grades. However, probably because it was always that way, and it was physically possible to do, the 3.5 min HTHS has tended to 'stick'.

Personally I have never bought the arguments that driving a petrol car is different in the US compared to Europe. A car is basically a car. A highway and a motorway are the same thing. The internal combustion engine is almost a unified design these days. Yes US engines are bigger but the job an oil has to do is much the same regardless of engine size.

I think the differences in OCI are just rooted in historical practice and perception of what is good. I find it amazing that Americans change their oil just because it starts to turn black. It's purposely designed to function when it's black and you're throwing it away way too early. Likewise there's a perception that you need to throw oil away when the TBN gets depleted. TBN is just the first line of defence and will always fall first but after that, AO will kick in to keep the oil stable and functioning. It's almost like regardless of the myriad improvements is US oil quality over the last 20 years, the American mind set is still stuck in the 1970s, and you still do what your father taught you to do. Both the US OEMs and oil companies know this and have every incentive to maintain the status quo.

PS - I'm trying to help my lad get a new car. He doesn't want a diddy econo-box like his dad, he wants a big crossover (think Range Rover Evoque size). Sadly, despite being a doctor, he is perpetually skint, and The Bank Of Dad is being called upon to do some Quantitative Easing! So I find him something that's big, has all the whistles and bells but is well priced; a new Ssangyong Tivoli 1.6 petrol. I'm only mentioning this because this bog-standard 1.6 litre, N/A engine has an OCI of 12,500 miles! Amazing.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: finmile
So this could be the reason why Nissan specified a low HTHS Energy Conserving oil (ILSAC GF-2) for the US market, but not a low HTHS Fuel Economy oil (ACEA A1-96) for the European market?

Because in Europe the revs are higher (and there are Autobahns in Germany)?


Lifted from a Honda Paper...

 

[Joe90_guy]

Yes. I've see this before on BITOG a couple of times. And yes, I do understand what the graph is attempting to demonstrate.

The thing that bothers me is why I'm seeing this now, AFTER formulating literally billions of litres of engine oil for every continent on the planet? If this was actually how the OEMs go about defining OCI, then I or one of my many colleagues or customers or OEM contacts would very likely have mentioned it or something like it...and course, they never ever did.

If this graph is anything or serves any purpose, it's probably to act as a clever,technically plausible fig leaf to justify why the US should be different to other areas in the world. Remember in this increasingly globalised world, we are talking more and more of the same cars on the same roads using the same gasoline. I've driven many times in the US and guess what? Other than the fact they drive on the wrong side of the road, it feels exactly the same as driving in the UK! It defies logic that US OCIs should therefore be half or a third of what they are elsewhere.

Just remember that the US OEMs have every incentive to keep OCIs low and US oil companies have every incentive to sell twice as much oil as they otherwise would. They can do this because they don't pick up the tab...the customer does.

Just my opinion of course...

 

[Kamele0N]

Compare their gasoline standards with ours...we have less sulfur...less inpurities in fuel...and more additives in it!

That can clear out why they have shorter OCIs...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: finmile
Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Originally Posted By: toneydoc
Folks in Europe can and do run their engines and cars at somewhat high revs and speeds depending on where you are.
The engines tend to have smaller displacements and rev higher under normal operations.


And yes, even with modern vehicles, some of the smaller engines in Primara's and similar sized vehicles will be turning 3500-4000rpm at cruising speeds on the motorway/highways.


So this could be the reason why Nissan specified a low HTHS Energy Conserving oil (ILSAC GF-2) for the US market, but not a low HTHS Fuel Economy oil (ACEA A1-96) for the European market?

Because in Europe the revs are higher (and there are Autobahns in Germany)?

Yes that's one traditional explanation with the higher motorway speeds in Europe raising the oil temp's thereby necessitating a somewhat heavier oil to compensate. But the reality seems to be that the Europeans manufacturers are simply more comfortable with a higher viscosity reserve than the North Americans.
The fact is that conditions in the US can be as hard on an engine particularly in the South West where ambient temp's can exceed 45C with high speeds.

The best advise is to run the lightest oil specified since that oil will satisfy the engines's viscosity requirements even under the most extreme conditions. The problem in Europe is that the lighter A5/B5 30 grade oils are not as readily available and tend to cost more than heavier A3/B4 30 grade oils.