Oil viscosity for Ford 6.7 diesel

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The manual states to use 10W30 unless it is severe service then they recommend 5W40. 15W40 is listed as suitable for temps above 20F for normal service.

They classify severe service as:

1)frequent idling
2)low speed use
3)sustained temps below 10 F
4)operating in severe dust conditions
5)operating off road
6)towing a trailer over 1000 miles
7)sustained high speed driving at max GVWR
8) use of other than ULSD

I get how the 5 in 5W40 would be better in temps below 10F and I get how the 40 in 5W40 would be better for trailer towing, max GVWR, etc.

My question is why is a 5W40 better for idling, low speed, off road, and dust? I don't really understand why a different oil viscosity would be better for this especially the off road / dust part.

I am contemplating switching all of my diesels to Schaeffers 7000 15W40 syn blend and buying it by the drum as I have 11 diesel engines.. I am in Texas and rarely see below 20 degrees. My 6.7 is the only one out of the 11 that doesn't specifically recommend a 15W40 for my application,
 
Low speed = more revs per mile. Off road provides extra load, staying in lower gear so on. Dusty conditions more chance of dirty oil from external sources (air intake leak ) thicker film / higher film strength will engulf more/ larger debris. I'm no expert but I think that should be enough to use the 40wt. In your weather I wouldn't hesitate to use 15w, it should be more robust unless true synthetic oil is being used.
 
What I find somewhat arbitrary is that they spec 5w-40 for severe service, but they obviously don't care about WHICH 5w-40 you would pick. What's their point here? What's magical about a 5w-40 that makes it preferred for severe service anyway?

Some of Ford's criteria for "severe" seems foolish to me, because using a different grade won't really alter the input of purported concern ...
- how is using a 5w-40 in a dusty condition "better" than a 10w-30; can the 40 grade make the air filter work better and reduce silicate ingestion?
- how is using a 5w-40 in low speeds "better" than 10w-30; can the 40 grade make the radiator cool better by altering the HX rate across the cooling fins?
- how is using a 5w-40 with non-ULSD "better" than a 10w-30; can the 40 grade do better by altering the sulfer content, negating the potential of acid production?
- how is using a 5w-40 with towing > 1000 miles "better" than using 10w-30; can the 40 grade reduce wear despite the fact that it cannot discern the weight of the load the trailer represents?
All these are somewhat silly, but it's this last one that often just befuddles me to no end ... How would this trailer-towing concern be different than having weight in the bed? If I put a 500 pound ATV on a 800 pound trailer, that represents 1300 pounds to pull, but it's a "trailer" so I "need" a 5w-40 to drive 1k miles, but if I were to put 4000 pounds in the bed and drove 5k miles, I'm only "hauling" and not "towing" and therefore 10w-30 is OK? Do you see how absurd some of their conditions are? Now, if they stated that 5w-40 is recommended for max trailering of an RV where the frontal area of wind resistance is essentially doubled, that might make more sense. But they don't. They just state that using a trailer for 1000 miles is severe, whereas hauling 4x that gross weight would not be severe. What makes it severe at 1k miles, but not at 900 miles. Would it be twice as severe at 2k miles? What if you towed the entire OCI; is it 10x more severe than the standard severe?

It's likely a market driven assumption that the lube industry will provide a "better" option of protection with a thicker lube. OK - then why a 5w-40 over a 15w-40? What's magic about the 5w-40? Are we that concerned about wear at start up?

Wait a minute, isn't Ford the same company that proved the longer OCIs actually reduce wear rates? SAE 2007-01-4133 was a joint effort between them and Conoco, after all. Perhaps they need to spend some time coordinating their efforts again and do another study; one that either proves or disproves the "need" for thicker grades under "severe" conditions.

Choosing a 5w-40 grp III like T6 or Delo is going to be heavily dosed with VIIs. Those often will shear down fairly quickly. So why spec a 40 grade that is going to end up at a 30 grade eventually anyway? Why not stick to the 30 grade recommendation? A PAO 5w-40 would hold the vis longer, but they don't specifically state that a PAO is recommended, so they really are making a mockery of the topic with a "cart blanche" statement like that in the first place. The 6.7L PSD has an IOLM, but let's be honest with ourselves and agree that it's not so intelligent as to be able to discern the base stock of the lube! It cannot even discern grade of lube. So why such an arbitrary recommendation for 5w-40 for "severe" sevice, when it's probably going to shear down to a 30 before the life is done anyway? And several of the severe condtiions cannot be negated by vis grade in the first place!

Conversely, 10w-30 HDEOs often show little, if any, shearing. Even in 6.0L PSD HEUI apps, there is evidence that dino 10w-30 HDEO holds up incredibly well in terms of shearing and wear. I've personally flogged to poo out of dino 10w-30 Rotella in my Dmax, and it held up admirably. Admittedly, the Dmax is about as easy on oil as one could hope for, but it's still a testament to the viabililty of the grade. rr1 has run his old 6.0PSD with 10w-30 HDEO and it shows outstanding wear and vis results. There is good proof that using a thinner grade in these applications does not appreciably alter the wear or vis traits, so why get all wadded up about it?

Honestly, these "which grade is best" threads are way more theory than reality. From what I've seen in over 10,000 UOAs in all kinds of gas and diesel equipment applications, most engines are not nearly as finicky as the OEM would lead us to believe. The OEMs make a recommendation; fine by me. But they are not going to spend the money to test every condition with every possible option; that is too much time/money to invest. Additionally, any change in a brand/grade/base-stock would then necessitate a new test to assure the viabililty of the new product. It's absurd. The OEMs simply don't care as long as they can assure you'll not have warranty issues when they would have to pay for repairs. After that, they don't care. And any decent CJ-4 lube will get you to the end of warranty, so why do they bother spec'ing a grade for different applications in the first place?

Admittedly, you've not indicated what other diesels you have, but I feel fairly confident that we can make some general considerations here ...
You have four choices:
1) use 10w-30 HDEO in all your diesel apps; it is safe despite what fear mongers say and the OEM may imply
2) use 15w-40 HDEO in all your diesel apps; it will be fine for your area
3) use 5w-40 HDEO in all your diesel apps; it will be fine for your area, but cost more than dino alternatives
4) stock more than one lube, and deal with the complexity of OCIs across your applications


As far as your equipment is concerned, it's very likely that the grade selection simply won't matter at all.
 
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I agree with all of the above post, I currently have approx. 3,500 mi. on my '15 6.7 and intend to run 10w-30 as I did in my 6.0. It will have the same use as the 6.0 had, loading the bed up to 4,000 lbs. and running 300 mi. down the highway during the summer, and occasional towing. I have a couple of flatbed trailers that I do tow, but for the most part I will be loading the bed of the truck and I have no reservations of running 10w-30 as I did in my 6.0 for roughly 140,000 mi., without issue and above average UOA's.
 
Thanks for the lengthy reply dnewton. What you outline is exactly what I was getting at. Their severe service criteria makes no sense. It does make one wonder though why they include it or why they don't just spec 5w40 for everything since most people do at least one of the items on their list.

I have thought of using 10w30 for everything but it makes me nervous on some of my older high hour equipment. I have a large 1980 John Deere tractor with over 8000 hrs that has seen 15w40 it's whole life. Also have a 1998 international truck that has similar hours and 15w40 since day one. Most my other equipment is newer and lower hours and I think would likely be fine on 10W30.
 
I find it ironic that Ford (and other OEMs as well) state that "severe" includes things we'd normally associate with a truck, especially a HD diesel truck.

Watching any commercial for any light-truck brand today, you'd swear that these things are invincible; they splash through mudholes, pound and bound over dirt hills and dales, yank schooners from sea-ports, haul cement sewer boxes 6' in height, etc, etc ... So if that's how they sell 'em, why is it "severe" to use them in that manner? And if that's what they expect service to be like, then why would that not be "normal" to be used in a "severe" manner? Would not "severe" be "normal" in terms of how they are designed? It's all marketing hype for sales and CYA in terms of warranty liability; they show you want you want to see to make you feel good about the purchase, then they tell you what they want you to know AFTER the sale has been made, so they can protect their wallet at the expense of yours. This is not unique; it's pretty much the approach every OEM makes for nearly every product you'd see on TV. The mentality is "Ours is the biggest, baddest, best in the market" and then you have to pay to maintain that product with premium products they recommend at your own expense.

Which brings me to a topic we've discussed before. There is a BIG difference between what is "recommended" and what is "required" in terms of product warranty. They may "recommend" 5w-40 for severe use, but they "require" a CJ-4 certified lube. This is a distinction that goes unnoticed by many. You are obligaged to use a CJ-4 product for the warranty, but you are NOT obligated to use any particular grade. This is all about the concept of burden of proof when it comes to the Magnuson/Moss warranty act. See and read all the info at the FTC website:
http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law

Looking over the 2015 diesel supplemental document, I see that Ford has the following grades as acceptable for use:
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_C...-US_02_2014.pdf
page 44 shows these as available choices:
10w-30
15w-40
5w-40
0w-30
0w-40
All depending upon expected temp ranges and use. That's a darn broad brush to be painting with, if you ask me. And since many of those "severe" conditions cannot be mitigated by grade, what exactly is their basis for any particular selection in the first place???? Phooey!
In that document, page 57, it shows that all but the 0w-30 meet a Ford spec of WSS-M2C171-E. It used to be that Ford had a different spec for differet grades. But four of these are all rated under one spec! So how important is grade if one spec covers all of them?????? See this other BITOG thread
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1220093&fpart=1
There are plenty of lubes that I can find that meet that fairly open spec, from many different sources.
Look these over; these are Ford M/C oils that ALL are to that same spec, but of different grades:
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...ory=Motor%20Oil
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...ory=Motor%20Oil
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...ory=Motor%20Oil
If you read the diesel supplement carefully, on page 45, it says this regarding severe service:
The following conditions define severe operation for which engine operation with SAE 5W-40 API CJ-4 is recommended. (they then list the conditions you stated previously in your OP).
Note that they "recommend" 5w-40, but they do not "require" 5w-40. That is because any lube that meets the spec (WSS-M2C171-E of any grade) is sufficient for use. So go grab a CJ-4 lube and be happy!

So, for more than 8 years, Ford has had essentially one spec for their diesel lubes, but they allows different grades within that same spec. Anything that would be CJ-4/SM would meet that spec. That is what is REQUIRED for the purposes of warranty coverage. They only "recommend" grades.

The reality is that I've seen absolutely no evidence that the vast majority of engines have any real preference in terms of WEAR RATES when it comes to viscosity, as long as you're reasonable in your selection. Going up or down a grade makes no real difference. Choosing an appropriate API category is important; I'd not use a CH-4 where CJ-4 is required for DPF, EGR, etc. I'd not use a SJ where SN is called for. But going backwards is certainly OK.

I will note that the HEUI systems do seem to prefer a lighter grade in terms of performance, but that has nothing to do with engine wear.


Overall I see no reason whatsoever to not use the 10w-30 year round in your 6.7L, regardless how it's used. However, if you're trying to find a "one-size-fits-all" lube for your diesel fleet, then you'll have to make a compromise somewhere. I would expect that 15w-40 dino HDEO would be fine in your 6.7L as well. You may lose a bit of fuel economy, but you'll not be risking any wear issues, and with HEUI out of the picture, that's one less thing to worry about in terms of vis.

I use 10w-30 dino HDEO in my old Kubota, my Dmax, my 1966 Mustang, my Scag air-cooled Kaw motor, etc. It's a great general all-around product. If you're that concerned about trying 10w-30, you can always does some UOAs on your older equipment with the 15w-40, and then try 10w-30 and do UOAs to see if you find any significant shifts in wear trending. Or, go the other way; keep the 15w-40 in your old stuff, and try 15w-40 in the 6.7L PSD. Do UOAs in that direction.

Every experiment I've done, along with tons of data I have, indicates to me that 10w-30 HDEO will suffice anywhere 15w-40 will work and vice-versa. But if you doubt my testimony, then by all means prove it to yourself! Nothing wrong with assuing yourself with your own experimentation.
 
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The easiest operation for oil is constant rpm highway driving as the engine and thus the oil are constantly working at their optimum operating temps and the hydrodynamic lubrication is in a stable state.

All of the items on that list are outside of the "ideal" so maintenance needs to be adjusted accordingly.

In severe dust conditions dust will get into the oil eventually. The bigger the expected particle size of contamination the thicker the oil will need to be (within the design constraints/recommended viscosity of the engine designers) to make sure it doesn't damage bearings on the way through the oil system.

Frequent idling will usually mean the oil spends longer in it's cold start mode (auto choke) and will not get hot enough to burn off the acidic condensation/blow-by and fuel dilution, thus degrading/thinning the oil much faster.

Operating off road will be harder on the oil because of the increased loads and rpms of the engine which increases the operating temp of the oil and thins it.

Low speed driving reason would be the same for frequent idling.

Usually they recommend shortening the OCI as well.
 
I'll take exception to some of what you state ...


Originally Posted By: riggaz
The easiest operation for oil is constant rpm highway driving as the engine and thus the oil are constantly working at their optimum operating temps and the hydrodynamic lubrication is in a stable state.
I agree with this.

All of the items on that list are outside of the "ideal" so maintenance needs to be adjusted accordingly.
I agree they are outside the "normal" list and therefore make for a special list; it's a self-fulfilling statement.

In severe dust conditions dust will get into the oil eventually. The bigger the expected particle size of contamination the thicker the oil will need to be (within the design constraints/recommended viscosity of the engine designers) to make sure it doesn't damage bearings on the way through the oil system.
Having "more" dust (from severely dusty conditions) does NOT equate to particle size. You can have more dust of smaller or larger size. Quantity and size are not the same thing. The size of a particle and the propensity of occurence are mutually exclusive; one does not rely on the other for magnitude. Here, your logic is flawed. Further, thicker oil does not preclude a particle from being introduced to the bearing wedge hydrofilm. Additionally, I've not seen any macro data that suggests your assertion to be backed up with facts. In analyzing over 10,000 UOA (and continuing to compile them), I don't see less wear from thicker lubes in general application. Looking a vehicles known to be in farming and mining environments (high dust zones), the UOA data does not distinguish a statistically significant different in wear rates between grades.

Frequent idling will usually mean the oil spends longer in it's cold start mode (auto choke) and will not get hot enough to burn off the acidic condensation/blow-by and fuel dilution, thus degrading/thinning the oil much faster.
There's no "auto choke" on a diesel. I would agree that lots of idling after subsequent shut-down cycles may preclude warming up (such as delivery stops). But excessive idling can also come from non-stop continuous use (police and taxi service). Because Ford does not distinguish what kind of idling they refer to, your assertion is somewhat one-sided. One could argue that oil not up to temp is not thin enough. One could argue that lube that's at temp may become too thin. I don't see any data to suggest one is more detrimental that the other. Also, because this is a diesel topic, the point about acid production is somewhat moot now that the fuels (ULSD) and oils (CJ-4) are extremely low in sulfer content. Those of us who actually run long OCIs, and get both TBN/TAN counts in our UOAs, can show that the topic of acid is overblown generally, and in a "normal" OCI it's just moot. I've got real data to show that TAN crossed over TBN several times, but the wear rates were not affected. As for fuel dilution, I would agree that is a concern in DPF/regen diesels. But again, a 40 grade is not really any less likely to be affected than a 30 grade, so what's the point? It is WEAR that we should concern ourselves with, and thinning due to moderate dilution is not showing any great disparity according to macro UOA data.

Operating off road will be harder on the oil because of the increased loads and rpms of the engine which increases the operating temp of the oil and thins it.
I agree this may result in thinning of a lube. I disagree in that the thinner lube actually results in any delta wear rate shift. At least not in terms of grade selection. Actually, many off-road heavy equipment OEMs like CAT and Volvo and such are now recommending and shipping their engines with 10w-30, and have been for a while. Fuel costs are VERY important when you're doing off-road work; often these are measured in terms of gallons/hour! Any savings can be substantial when operating a fleet of CAT dozers or Volvo rock-trucks, etc. If wear rates were greatly affected by the use of thinner lubes in off-road operation, you'd think these companies would not recommend such use. But they do, because data shows the real fuel savings far outweighs the minimal wear delta, if the dW exists at all.

Low speed driving reason would be the same for frequent idling.
Ditto my points on that, too, from above.

Usually they recommend shortening the OCI as well.
The truck has an IOLM; it should self-manage based upon Ford's predetermined parameters.


Generally I disagree on some points because your theory is trumped by the reality of TONS of real-world data. The SAE 2007-01-4133 study showed that wear rates are most greatly affected by the existence of the TCB (tribochemical barrier). My normalcy article data backs this up with countless examples from thousands of UOAs in all manner of applications from on-road, off-road, generators, tractors, etc. I don't see any data that suggests there is a major wear shift due to these "severe" conditions in the real world between two similar grades of lube.
 
Yeah, I'm at work so missed the "diesel" part of the title due to rushing it, schoolboy error

"Those of us who actually run long OCIs, and get both TBN/TAN counts in our UOAs, can show that the topic of acid is overblown generally, and in a "normal" OCI it's just moot. I've got real data to show that TAN crossed over TBN several times, but the wear rates were not affected"

For the above statement to be relevant you would need UOA's from the same engine operated normally according to Ford and operated severely according to Ford wouldn't you?
 
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"Actually, many off-road heavy equipment OEMs like CAT and Volvo and such are now recommending and shipping their engines with 10w-30, and have been for a while."

If the oil thins too much due to operating temp and goes outside of the required viscosity then wouldn't it create too much oil flow and affect hydrodynamic lubrication?
 
"In analyzing over 10,000 UOA (and continuing to compile them), I don't see less wear from thicker lubes in general application."

Are UOA's designed for monitoring wear? I thought UOA's were only really to be used to ascertain contaminant load of the oil in service.

Obviously particle size in a used oil would be determined by the oil filter so bad choice of words on my part

xx
 
Originally Posted By: riggaz
For the above statement to be relevant you would need UOA's from the same engine operated normally according to Ford and operated severely according to Ford wouldn't you?
.
If the oil thins too much due to operating temp and goes outside of the required viscosity then wouldn't it create too much oil flow and affect hydrodynamic lubrication?
.
Are UOA's designed for monitoring wear? I thought UOA's were only really to be used to ascertain contaminant load of the oil in service. Obviously particle size in a used oil would be determined by the oil filter so bad choice of words on my part.



I've seen TBN/TAN data from many different applications. Generally, when TAN crosses TBN, there's no statistically significant shift in wear. I've looked at this data in diesels and gassers in all kinds of static and dynamic applications. The TBN/TAN relationship is a precursor to the possilibity of an escalation of acid onset. It does NOT prove to be an automatic cause for wear to occur; it is merely an indicator that further close scrutiny is warranted to look for a shift in wear metal escalation. Generally, unless it goes severely out of balance, I've seen no data to show it is as harmful as fear mongers would state.


"If the oil thins too much ... Sure - if it thins too much, problems will arise. But you're making a presumption that this actually happens. What proof do you have that 10w-30 thins "too much" in any particular application, including off-road? Again, many OEMs are now pushing 10w-30 in their equipment right from the factory. The fuel savings is real, whereas the escalation of wear is not. There may be very old applications that were spec'd for a thick monograde; here a 10w-30 may not make sense due to very large bearing clearnances. But generally, anything made in the last few decades can easily perform on a thinner grade. Data shows this to be true, and OEMs are beginning to acknowledge it. I have personal data that shows extreme use still results in "normal" wear rates; it echos data from my entire data base. The proof is in the normalcy article for all to read. How thin is too thin? When it thins so much that wear metals are affected to a degree that they show a significant sigma shift, it's "too thin". So until you would have direct proof of a lube vis actually resulting in a statistically significant wear rate shift, I'll stick with the tons of data I've processed showing grades (up or down one range) generally mean nothing to wear.


Are UOAs designed to monitor wear? Well - I don't really know how you're defining the word "designed". But I'll contend this ...
UOAs are a direct view of lubricant condition.
UOAs are an indirect view of equipment condition.

UOAs have been shown to have decent correlation to "normal" wear. But because they have a limited upper ceiling (3-5um in particle size) they cannot see all wear particles. Generally, "normal" wear is small, and generates smaller particles. Therefore a UOA will see most of the total wear. But any catastrophic event or shift due to a significantly detrimental cause would result in a huge influx of large wear particles the UOA would not see. There is plenty of data to show that UOAs certainly can predict the onset of problems; problems that start small and grow over time. If you catch the issue soon enough in a UOA, you'll see the evidence present. But if you pull a UOA AFTER the event becomes big, you may never see the evidence (or at least not see the preponderence of it).

What are the alternatives to a UOA?
- doing nothing
- doing an engire teardown with measurements based upon component weight or atomic bombardment
- doing particle count analysis on filters

Doing nothing: The VAST majority of the public does this. Doesn't mean their engines are any better or worse off; it just means they have zero idea of the condition of their equipment.
Doing an engine teardown: quite expensive in terms of time and money. Plus I don't own the type lab equipment necessary to analyze the parts. Who can afford to teardown and reassemble their engine every 5k or 10k miles? But I can certainly afford a UOA every 10k miles.
Doing p/c analysis: helps, but it can ONLY discern particle size; it CANNOT determine composition. Therefore you may be aware that you have contamination of a certain ISO size, but you have zero idea if it's Cu, Al, Fe, Cr, Pb or whatever ... If you don't know what it's made of, you cannot ascertain the percentage of any one particular element. Is it Fe from the cylinder or Pb from a bearing? No one knows with a PC.

So I see UOAs as a great tool. I understand both their benefits and limitations. They are a low-cost alternative to teardowns. They are more informational that P/Cs. They are not perfect; they are not a panacea. They are helpful in understanding what is "normal" and "abnormal". From there, further investigation is needed.
 
I've only ever seen 5w40 diesel oil as a full synthetic while most (not all) 15w40s are conventional. My assumption is Ford is spec'ing a full syn for severe duty and a conventional for standard duty and offering various viscosities based on operating temps. At my company we are most definately severe duty and I'd say abusive duty and we just run Mag1 All Fleet 15w40 conventional and can get 300-350k out of a Powerstroke.....then sell it to another operator and it's still going for who knows how long.
 
The fuel distributor that fills my pumps sells Delo and begs me to switch. The problem is the price is so much more than the Mag1 and I don't see any benefits I would get.
 
Just run Rotella 15W-40 in the summer and Rotella 5w-40 in the winter. That's what I do in my 6.6 LMM Duramax. (I lied, I'm running Petro-Canada Duron Synthetic 5w-40 right now)
 
Canada Eh? Kidding. Im in Florida. Winter is 50f here. Lol. Im sticking with my Mag1 15w40. I love Canada btw. I have family from there.
 
Bdog, my fleet in Idaho was used almost exclusively under the first seven of those 8 'severe' conditions. We ran RLI's 5w40HD in the diesels (Had a few of the Ford 6.7s and tractors, too), and a custom-made, thick SAE20 from RLI in all the gassers, regardless of make or engine. Now granted these were super high quality fluids, and that was the primary factor, but even with these non-traditional grades we were able to double or triple OCIs and contain wear as well or better.

Originally Posted By: Bdog
The manual states to use 10W30 unless it is severe service then they recommend 5W40. 15W40 is listed as suitable for temps above 20F for normal service.

They classify severe service as:

1)frequent idling
2)low speed use
3)sustained temps below 10 F
4)operating in severe dust conditions
5)operating off road
6)towing a trailer over 1000 miles
7)sustained high speed driving at max GVWR
8) use of other than ULSD

I get how the 5 in 5W40 would be better in temps below 10F and I get how the 40 in 5W40 would be better for trailer towing, max GVWR, etc.

My question is why is a 5W40 better for idling, low speed, off road, and dust? I don't really understand why a different oil viscosity would be better for this especially the off road / dust part.

I am contemplating switching all of my diesels to Schaeffers 7000 15W40 syn blend and buying it by the drum as I have 11 diesel engines.. I am in Texas and rarely see below 20 degrees. My 6.7 is the only one out of the 11 that doesn't specifically recommend a 15W40 for my application,
 
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