Often you see TV adds or tests on Youtube where someone puts a little oil on a bearing and places it in this machine with an electric motor and a bar that you put pressure on and see how long it takes to stop and then the person shows you the wear scar on the bearing and his special lube always has the smallest wear scar. I dont know what the proper name of this contraption is I like to call it a one arm bandit. I was wondering is this test even valid as far as what goes on inside an internal combustion engine? Does this test have any real advantage or meaning on what oil or additive someone decides to use?
One arm bandit
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There is an approved test somewhat similar to what you describe for diesel fuel called HFRR. Tests the lubricity of the fuel, important for older mechanical injector pumps.
I think that you are referring to the Timken apparatus, now made by Falex. In a standardized form it is a part of ASTM D2509 and ASTM D2782 for extreme pressure lubricants, mainly grease. It's not very relevant for bearings, but I think that it mimics some of the actions on a cam.
Most here will say that it has nothing to do with engines.
Most here will say that it has nothing to do with engines.
When I saw the thread title, I thought it was going to be about slot machines or casinos.
Talk to death about here over the years. Absolutely not valid. The oil that passes this test will fail other required certification tests. Oil has to do much more than ONE thing extremely well.
Eg: ROYAL PERP with WAY to much sulphur (compounded) in its signature additive system (synerlec)to pass ILSAC GF5, so they come out with a API product that's NO better in any meaningful way than any other 4 to 5 dollar pseudo syn out there.
Forget you even saw that test.
There ARE other fretting/rubbing/abrasion test that ARE valid in determining the complete package effectiveness.
Watch some Pennzoil ULTRA/GTL videos. Ive seen their laser interferometer micro-topographs showing rubbing abrasive wear.
Eg: ROYAL PERP with WAY to much sulphur (compounded) in its signature additive system (synerlec)to pass ILSAC GF5, so they come out with a API product that's NO better in any meaningful way than any other 4 to 5 dollar pseudo syn out there.
Forget you even saw that test.
There ARE other fretting/rubbing/abrasion test that ARE valid in determining the complete package effectiveness.
Watch some Pennzoil ULTRA/GTL videos. Ive seen their laser interferometer micro-topographs showing rubbing abrasive wear.
Whats interesting is how actual tribologists and chemists use things tribometers to try and test experimental oil formulas for basic goodness (before running a full MB 229.5 for example!!):
Three types of tribological test were undertaken each representing a different contact geometry. These included the use of
a Mini Traction Machine (MTM), Plint high-speed short-stroke friction rig (TE-77) and a High Frequency Reciprocating"Rigg (HFRR). see down to page 4 of http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/4875/1/Huddersfield_Paper.pdf
And then the Shell SOPUS Pennzoil, Quaker State oil lab in Houston uses these kinds of machines as well: (skip to the 4:40 point)
Three types of tribological test were undertaken each representing a different contact geometry. These included the use of
a Mini Traction Machine (MTM), Plint high-speed short-stroke friction rig (TE-77) and a High Frequency Reciprocating"Rigg (HFRR). see down to page 4 of http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/4875/1/Huddersfield_Paper.pdf
And then the Shell SOPUS Pennzoil, Quaker State oil lab in Houston uses these kinds of machines as well: (skip to the 4:40 point)
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Just the link to the SOPUS lab tour video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUr7-Ug1Uqc
I'd say skip to the 4:40 point for tribometer stuff.
Viewing before that point is ok too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUr7-Ug1Uqc
I'd say skip to the 4:40 point for tribometer stuff.
Viewing before that point is ok too.
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The falex machines (the ones that have weights added to the arm) measure lubricity. Whether it is oil or gear lube, it is an adequate test. The one that Amsoil has coined the "one armed bandit" is different and the results can be manipulated. Two different machines.
Lubricity isn't a thing you measure though, is it?
Originally Posted By: jk_636
The falex machines (the ones that have weights added to the arm) measure lubricity. Whether it is oil or gear lube, it is an adequate test. The one that Amsoil has coined the "one armed bandit" is different and the results can be manipulated. Two different machines.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
The falex machines (the ones that have weights added to the arm) measure lubricity. Whether it is oil or gear lube, it is an adequate test. The one that Amsoil has coined the "one armed bandit" is different and the results can be manipulated. Two different machines.
No wonder Mobil runs taxi cab tests, they don't have Shell's special machine!
Pretty interesting actually, thanks for posting.
Pretty interesting actually, thanks for posting.
Yes, the 'One Armed Bandit' is a meaningless test apparatus. Head and shoulders actually does better than most any engine oil with this test... what does that tell you? I have seen alot of Royal Purple videos over the years using this test, one of them being against Amsoil, they gently loaded it for RP, and when it came to Amsoil, they literally DROPPED the weights on. Regardless, the Timken load test is MEANINGLESS.
Yes, agreed on one-armed bandit test problems. Shell and tribologists around the world do rely on a variety of tribometers to test AW/FM wear-friction characteristics during product development.
If a new oil formula does well on all the various tribometer device tests, they have some reason to believe it'll pass all the engine tests when that time comes. Thats the key, a variety of tests, since a real engine sees different pressures, sliding rates, rolling rates, temperatures, etc. in rings, cams, bearings, all that, which it takes a roomful of tribometers to bring out. Not just one kind of machine.
If a new oil formula does well on all the various tribometer device tests, they have some reason to believe it'll pass all the engine tests when that time comes. Thats the key, a variety of tests, since a real engine sees different pressures, sliding rates, rolling rates, temperatures, etc. in rings, cams, bearings, all that, which it takes a roomful of tribometers to bring out. Not just one kind of machine.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Just the link to the SOPUS lab tour video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUr7-Ug1Uqc
I'd say skip to the 4:40 point for tribometer stuff.
Viewing before that point is ok too.
I've not had too many issues with the cross-heads with the lubricants that I've run.
Just the link to the SOPUS lab tour video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUr7-Ug1Uqc
I'd say skip to the 4:40 point for tribometer stuff.
Viewing before that point is ok too.
I've not had too many issues with the cross-heads with the lubricants that I've run.
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