Can Honda VCM problems be fixed with short OCi's?

[willbur]

Mr. Trav-
when you say "VCM-1" do you mean the 4-6 version or the first 3-4-6 VCM motors? My 2008 with 35000 miles is probably 90% high speed turnpike driving. Appears the eco light was on alot of the time, too. The honda dealer serevice manager ment infrequent oil changes when he said poor maintananve was responsible for the issues. My OLM is at 50-70 % when I do the OC. My understandinfg differs from yours concerning these motors, i.e. its the back bank that has the problems,not the front, and the current TSB addresses the back bank, specifically #3 cylinder. I sure would like your further insight on this. Thanks

 

[Trav]

Notice the Accord..
Quote:
2013 Honda Accord V6 (except 6MT coupe) *VCM operation is 3- or 6-cylinder mode, no longer 3, 4, 6-cylinder operation


VCM-1 used a 3 or 6 cyl mode and VCM-2 used 3-4-6 cyl mode.
VCM-1 use only the front 3 cyl in eco mode and when problems did occur the rear bank stopped working because of varnish in the valves and solenoids.
The front bank got a lot more varnish and deposits becuae of the exces heat generated on that bank.

VCM-2 also had this mode some of the time but also ran in 4 cyl mode with one cyl on each bank deactivated, essentially running as a V4.
This is the one with carbon and oil consumption issues.

The earlier VCM-1 could be cleaned up pretty well and they continue to run without issue, more frequent oil changes do help the condition in these engines.
For some reason i understand the VCM-2 engines can have worn rings/bores also even when the oil is changed more frequently.

I don't see any VCM-2 engines the people i know with them are under warranty.
My only thought is keep an eye on whats going on inside through the fill hole, if it begins to looks dark lower the OCI and keep the PCV replaced.
if it is using oil then there isn't much that can be done for it from the owners end.

On the VCM-1 engines changing the oil every 5K with synthetic oil and regular PCV changes does keep them clean and prevent the issue.
Varnish is far from a cosmetic stain in these engines it can cause major and very expensive problems.
If you ask me if 5k OCI on VCM-2 engines will help my answer is i don't know, it may or may not but it cant hurt other than the slight extra cost in oil and filters.

We keep referring to VCM-1 and VCM-2 in the context of VCM-1 being the earlier verion and 2 as the later.

I am not sure how Honda refers to these systems as the were introducing AVTEC which..
Quote:
engine combines continuously variable valve lift and timing control with the continuously variable phase control of valve timing


I know little about this one and am not sure if Honda doesn't refer to this a VCM-2 as far as the V6 is concerned.
Without further clouding the issue for this discussion lets just continue to refer to them old VCM-1 and newer version as VCM-2.

I am not an expert on these engines i just have some experience that spans a few years and quite a few of the early VCM engines taken apart. Everything i post about them is based on that and my own opinion.

 

[willbur]

Trav-
thank you for your thoughful and valuable response. I trust your posts.

 

[candoo]

Sorry for the long time in getting back to you all, but thanks very much for all your feedback to me on this VCM issue, especially you ,Trav, as you gave very time involved answers. I think, though, that I'll give my 2013 Odyssey shorter oil changes than the MM says, just to be on the safe side -- hey, that and pray is about all I can do anyway

candoo

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: candoo
I think, though, that I'll give my 2013 Odyssey shorter oil changes than the MM says, just to be on the safe side

Nothing wrong with that, personally i would do the same along with changing the PCV valve once in a while (every 30K or so).

On this one it should be located on the drivers side front valve cover right behind the oil filler cap on the side
Honda part# 17130-RCA-A02 Retails for about $24.
To remove it just remove the 10mm head bolt and twist it at the same time as pulling it out.
Do not use a screwdriver to pry it, it will break. Remove it when the engine is warm (not hot).

 

[candoo]

Trav -- Thanks again. I'll look into getting some PCV valves and replacing them as you recommended, as it's probably more good insurance.

I must say, that when our family was researching new vans last year, I was waffling back and forth between the Odyssey, and the Sienna. I liked the idea of Toyota's simpler (and more powerful) engine and six speed transmission, but the wife liked how the Odyssey drove. Kinda wish now, I could go back in time to change my decision and get the Sienna, as now I'm stuck with this stupid VCM issue hanging over my head like a hammer that may drop on me and cost me a lot of money to resolve. Anyway, to anyone else out there reading this, that is contemplating on an Odyssey, hope this helps you decide.

candoo

 

[Trav]

My brother feels your pain. He went through exactly the same dilemma, his wife had to have the Honda, its been a real heart breaker and a vacuum cleaner on the wallet.

You have a newer model and his was abused IMHO if truth is told, i think any car would have issues if treated like this poor van, maybe not as many but...

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: Trav
My brother feels your pain. He went through exactly the same dilemma, his wife had to have the Honda, its been a real heart breaker and a vacuum cleaner on the wallet.


Now the Hondas come with the vacuum cleaner as a standard option on the top line model.

All kidding aside, I feel confident with our 2013. I keep up on maintenance well enough on any car I own to believe that I won't have any issues with this van. I too chose the Ody over the Sienna because of how it rode and drove. It wasn't even close in my opinion.

 

[candoo]

Trav--

Just had a thought cross my mind overnight. Don't know if anyone else has thought of this, but could the problem with these VCM issues be oil pumping up inside the deactivated cylinders through less than adequate rings, then, when they reactivate, the spark plugs get increasingly fouled until failure.

Now, of course the variability in when this happens, depends on the type of driving (how often the engine is in ECO mode), the type/condition of the oil (poorer lube = more oil pumped into the cylinder), condition of the oil control rings (low ring tension/deposits in rings = more oil pumped into cylinder).

This might help explain why keeping the lube in top condition by changing it frequently and/or using synthetic, helps to keep deposits on the oil control rings low, and thus the oil pumping lower.

There is more variability because everyone's driving situation is different, and so, the exact cause of the problem is so hard to nail down... any thoughts on this, or has it been covered somewhere before?

This theory, if true, points to the answer that if you just keep all the cylinders firing all the time, the problem would never arise. In other words -- kill the VCM nonsense

candoo

 

[Trav]

That sure sounds plausible. Many engines are using low tension rings these days in an attempt to reduce friction inside the engine.
It is said that rings alone contribute around 37% of the total fiction in the engine.

Oil getting up into cylinders could also be caused by in adequate PCV or poor windage tray design.
The PCV in these engines is diffidently adequate, i am surprised Honda has not addressed this.
When you change it you will be surprised as i was when you see the "business" end.

I think you may well be onto something with the rings. Once crankcase pressure is no longer being well controlled it may let the oil pass by them.
I would like to get one apart and examine it.

It would be great if you could pull the PCV say every 20K and see whats going on, then you and we would know what their lifespan is before they begin to cause problems.
30-40K seems to be the limit on the old ones but Honda doesn't even have a published service interval for the thing.

At 80K almost all of them i have seen are totally plugged.

Thanks for an interesting discussion. This has been a good BITOG thread, not bashing, no fan club or attacks just trying to understand an issue and how to prevent it. Good stuff!

 

[candoo]

Thanks for the good feedback on my question.

I will definitely be having a look at that PCV valve in May, when I do the oil change on the Odyssey. I previously had a 2000 Odyssey before this one for 13 years - never had a look at its PCV, but then, I never had these issues with it's 3.5 VTEC -- 192,000km -almost no oil consumption per 8000km, and the engine ran beautifully when I sold it.

The new Odyssey has about 22000 km on it now, so it'll be a good time to have a snoop at the PCV. Oh, BTW, I've already changed the oil in it 4 times -- 640 km, 7300 km, 11500km, and 16600 km, so its not like it's the original oil.

candoo

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: candoo
I previously had a 2000 Odyssey before this one for 13 years - never had a look at its PCV,

The 2000 used a conventional PCV on the rear bank, no problems. Why they moved away from this is anyones guess.

 

[refaller]

I have tried to get a PCV from my dealer and the parts guy says it doesn't have one. I see it online, but hate to pay shipping for a $17 part that they obviously have. So far though, still less than a quart in 8000 mile OCIs.

Trav- what percentage would you say have these issues? I have been extremely pleased with this engine- pulls hard and good gas mileage for the size of the vehicle. Overall, my Oddy has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. Haven't replaced a single non-wear item in 9 years and 130000 miles.

ref

 

[willbur]

Trav-
thanks for the heads up. Removed plugs and they appeared normal @35,000 on my 2008 V6 with the VCM-2 setup. Looked under valve cover with a small flexible led light and valve train was spotless. Removed and inspected PCV valve, and it did not rattle. Appears it was plugged up. Cleaned it with carb cleaner and reinstalled it. Don't know how some people claim it was okay @80,000 on their rig. Gently prying with screwdriver to remove it was no problem.
Regarding this VCM-2 issue, I do not think it is that common. CR Annual Auto issue, MSN Auto reliability reports, and professional auto repair trade magazines make no mention of it, as far as I can tell. If it is a commonn problem, they would be all over it.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: candoo
Trav--

Just had a thought cross my mind overnight. Don't know if anyone else has thought of this, but could the problem with these VCM issues be oil pumping up inside the deactivated cylinders through less than adequate rings, then, when they reactivate, the spark plugs get increasingly fouled until failure.

Now, of course the variability in when this happens, depends on the type of driving (how often the engine is in ECO mode), the type/condition of the oil (poorer lube = more oil pumped into the cylinder), condition of the oil control rings (low ring tension/deposits in rings = more oil pumped into cylinder).

This might help explain why keeping the lube in top condition by changing it frequently and/or using synthetic, helps to keep deposits on the oil control rings low, and thus the oil pumping lower.

There is more variability because everyone's driving situation is different, and so, the exact cause of the problem is so hard to nail down... any thoughts on this, or has it been covered somewhere before?

This theory, if true, points to the answer that if you just keep all the cylinders firing all the time, the problem would never arise. In other words -- kill the VCM nonsense

candoo


You've just explained why the cylinder deactivation on the gm models caused them to consume oil.
I've learned a lot about these systems since my hemi has mds.
When the cylinders deactivate there's no pressure in the combustion changer so the rings aren't being forced tight against the cylinder walls. This lets oil get by the rings.
What dodge did was let the deactivated cylinders fire with the valves closed which keeps tension on the cylinder walls. And the dodge ecu will allow a combustion event every few minutes to maintain this cylinder pressure hence keeping the rings tight against the cylinder walls.

It took gm a while to figure out how to keep pressure in the deactivated cylinders but now that they have,no more oil consumption.
The hemi's had this from day one so obviously they knew about the oil loss and potential for sticking rings so they had the ecu programmed to allow a combustion even but not open the exhaust valve and let the pressure escape.
The pressure in the cylinder also helps create a cushion helping the crank spin because there's pressure in the cylinder.
Very neat system when done right.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: refaller
I have tried to get a PCV from my dealer and the parts guy says it doesn't have one. I see it online, but hate to pay shipping for a $17 part that they obviously have. So far though, still less than a quart in 8000 mile OCIs.

Trav- what percentage would you say have these issues? I have been extremely pleased with this engine- pulls hard and good gas mileage for the size of the vehicle. Overall, my Oddy has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. Haven't replaced a single non-wear item in 9 years and 130000 miles.
ref


It has one i guarantee you that. Its on the side of front valve cover near the front of the engine. It is held with a 10mm head bolt.
I think its a small percentage that has problems, it seems to be totally dependent on how the car is used.
The non iVTEC engines had no serious issues that i know of. Which model odyssey do you have?

You can get a PCV for it at Advance Auto from BWD. Open the box and on the bag it has Honda right on it, it is the OEM part. For the 05 the part# BWD Part No. PCV520

Originally Posted By: willbur
removed plugs and they appeared normal @35,000 on my 2008 V6 with the VCM-2 setup. Looked under valve cover with a small flexible led light and valve train was spotless. Removed and inspected PCV valve, and it did not rattle. Appears it was plugged up.


It sounds like you caught that PVC just in time. The thing is small eh? If it wasn't rattling it wasn't working, thats when deposit issues begin.
As far as the publications being all over it, there is a class action law suit against Honda so it is known.

As you can see by the other poster not being able to get a PVC for an 05 many parts guys don't even know it has one.
Many mechanics at the dealer are just chalking this issue up to poor owner maintenance.
The issue seems to be largely unreported by Honda and owners alike.

Honda would have to admit an issue exist and owners would have to admit they didn't take care of their car because they were told that by the Honda dealer.
There was a thread a while back where they tried to pull this on one owner, only problem was they (Honda dealer) performed the maintenance.
He went to war with Honda and they paid the repair but would not admit there was an at fault issue. .

 

[willbur]

That BWD pcv valve is about $24 at Advance (special order). But it's Honda OE. Equivalent Purolator PV1070 is about $4 at pep boys.

 

[kacowboy]

So if the GM system is so good, why am I having to replace the AFM lifters and camshft at 137000. Due to oil not properly getting to the AFM lifters.



Originally Posted By: Trav
IMO Honda should have taken a lesson from GM's 8-6-4 fiasco, their first failed attempt at this technology.
GM was smart enough to shelve the technology until it was ready for prime time, on the other hand Honda put out a very complex and sketchy system and used consumer vehicles as a test bed.
When it came to light there were serious issues they scrambled like mad to correct them and created new issues.
Instead of shelving it till they got it right and losing a few CAFE credits they foisted it once again on the consumer.

Today it seems GM and Chrysler have really good systems. Honda in spite of their whizzbang engineering skills still doesn't seem to be able to get this right.
I would go as far to say they actually ruined a very good and proven engine with this and charged a premium for it.

Still a little class action law suite provides some relief but owners of the early version got left holding the bag anyway.

 

[Mud]

Interesting discussion on this. I can offer only a lone perspective within the internet wilderness - I had paused to make some subjective observations on our 2008 V6 Accord:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3313612/1
Within that post:
"Related to comments about frequent (shorter) OCI's on VCM type of engines I totally agree. I've stuck with approx 4500 mi OCI's since new using whatever quality oil is on sale - PP to PYB to Havoline, etc. Filters were OEM,MC, or Wix. Doing the same on the 2011 Silverado. I've never had an issue with sludge or similar - I have one of those HF cameras that are on a flex head, looking inside the valve cover there's a bit of discoloration here and there, other than that everything is clean, nothing collected in corners and crevices. I don't use any oil additives, I will use some Techron in the tank whenever I feel like it and its on sale."

I did replace the PCV at around 75K I think it was and it was clean, still rattled. I thought about leaving it in, but with a new one in hand, I replaced it but kept the original. Interesting that the orifice sizing on it is quite small, I could see how clogging could happen.

The car uses about 1/2-3/4 qt of oil between changes which I've not worried about. With all this said, this is a snapshot of current condition. Always a possibility of something going south, but my overall observation is that with VCM more frequent OCI's may have been of benefit. I do the same 4500 OCI's on the 2011 Silverado 5.3 as well. Time will tell on all....

 

[AndyCBR]

Originally Posted By: Mud
Interesting discussion on this. I can offer only a lone perspective within the internet wilderness - I had paused to make some subjective observations on our 2008 V6 Accord:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3313612/1
Within that post:
"Related to comments about frequent (shorter) OCI's on VCM type of engines I totally agree. I've stuck with approx 4500 mi OCI's since new using whatever quality oil is on sale - PP to PYB to Havoline, etc. Filters were OEM,MC, or Wix. Doing the same on the 2011 Silverado. I've never had an issue with sludge or similar - I have one of those HF cameras that are on a flex head, looking inside the valve cover there's a bit of discoloration here and there, other than that everything is clean, nothing collected in corners and crevices. I don't use any oil additives, I will use some Techron in the tank whenever I feel like it and its on sale."

I did replace the PCV at around 75K I think it was and it was clean, still rattled. I thought about leaving it in, but with a new one in hand, I replaced it but kept the original. Interesting that the orifice sizing on it is quite small, I could see how clogging could happen.

The car uses about 1/2-3/4 qt of oil between changes which I've not worried about. With all this said, this is a snapshot of current condition. Always a possibility of something going south, but my overall observation is that with VCM more frequent OCI's may have been of benefit. I do the same 4500 OCI's on the 2011 Silverado 5.3 as well. Time will tell on all....



Another data point on this topic.

I have a 2008 Odyssey Touring with an almost identical experience to the user above.

OCI at around 6k miles with Mobil 1 Synthetic.
At 97k major service PCV had some carbon but still rattled.
Adjusted 10/12 Intake valves (all loose) and 2/12 Exhaust (tight).
Plugs were original and unremarkable.
Oil usage is consistent at 1/2-3/4 qt over the OCI since new.

Aside from the minor annoyance of the slight judder/vibration of the VCM kicking on and off so far so good.

The Honda settlement claims that the rings can "align" and cause oil consumption issues.

I can only assume this happens because of lack of combustion pressure when running deactivated. Not sure why this affects some and not others. Also not sure why there is a VIN range for the repair (not published) even though the settlement includes all year models listed.

Maybe an engine that uses VCM a lot early in its service life can get the rings shifted to a point where the gaps are aligned and they stay there for whatever reason.

The guys on Odyclub have figured out a way to totally deactivate VCM with no other side effects other than a CEL. This procedure is reversible but you would have to clear the CEL and drive for a while to pass most state inspections that use OBD2. That's one of the reasons I haven't disabled it yet.

I'm also unclear with what has changed to "correct" the problems with newer VCM engines. I know they have changed the VCM yet again (VCM3?) and gone back to a 3/6 mode with no 4 cylinder mode.

For the very small improvements claimed in mileage VCM certainly introduces more failure modes and obviously has some unintended problems regarding long term durability.

If we get another minivan I will look closely at the Toyota product. No VCM and no timing belt are certainly selling points in my book.