I saw the new 10W60 Twin Power M oil today at the dealership, guess what % of the $12.99/liter price tag is the tacky new blue bottle.
Shell or Castrol... what's in the BMW bottle now?
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The Shell replacement for TWS is already trickling through the system. It's called M TwinPower Turbo 10w-60 -- which is interesting, because the list of approvals on the label includes exactly zero turbocharged M cars...
A very good point! The new, turbo-charged M engines use regular LL-04/LL-01 oil, not the 10W-60 that is meant for the non-turbo legacy M engines. The only turbo-charged engine I can think of that requires the 10W-60 is the early model year BMW 123d, which needs the 10W-60 (later years, after around 2008, take the regular stuff). This isn't an M engine either.
The Shell replacement for TWS is already trickling through the system. It's called M TwinPower Turbo 10w-60 -- which is interesting, because the list of approvals on the label includes exactly zero turbocharged M cars...
A very good point! The new, turbo-charged M engines use regular LL-04/LL-01 oil, not the 10W-60 that is meant for the non-turbo legacy M engines. The only turbo-charged engine I can think of that requires the 10W-60 is the early model year BMW 123d, which needs the 10W-60 (later years, after around 2008, take the regular stuff). This isn't an M engine either.
For marketing purposes
Changing oil supplier is a reasonably big deal and in marketing they do love a facelift
If Castrol were the ones that designed the bottle and label rather than BMW then it will be changed but if BMW designed it and they are happy with the design they might not bother.
Changing oil supplier is a reasonably big deal and in marketing they do love a facelift
If Castrol were the ones that designed the bottle and label rather than BMW then it will be changed but if BMW designed it and they are happy with the design they might not bother.
SOPUS is supposed to have a TWS equivalent for these customers/engines.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?
Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?
Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?
Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Via Audi dealerships for the R8 GT (and probably Lamborghini also), as it has the 501.01 (resurrected/repurposed)/505.00 approval
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?
Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Via Audi dealerships for the R8 GT (and probably Lamborghini also), as it has the 501.01 (resurrected/repurposed)/505.00 approval
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
I don't really see it that way.
The dealerships I frequent use the BMW labeled stuff exclusively.
Demand for 10W-60 is going to be light so it's not going to benefit the dealer to stock two or three different options.
And if they are looking for a cheaper alternate, I believe they would lean toward Liqui Moly like many of the indy shops that do BMW service.
I could be wrong.
I just see Castrol with 10% of the 10W-60 market in the US today when they had 90% of the market last month.
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
I don't really see it that way.
The dealerships I frequent use the BMW labeled stuff exclusively.
Demand for 10W-60 is going to be light so it's not going to benefit the dealer to stock two or three different options.
And if they are looking for a cheaper alternate, I believe they would lean toward Liqui Moly like many of the indy shops that do BMW service.
I could be wrong.
I just see Castrol with 10% of the 10W-60 market in the US today when they had 90% of the market last month.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Yup... SOPUS has a 10w-60 oil. It's probably just a formality for BMW to bless it for their needs...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
The older version of this product did in fact specifically mention the BMW M approval, although I have never seen BMW mention this oil in their literature...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003481632_20100319220_2.pdf
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
The older version of this product did in fact specifically mention the BMW M approval, although I have never seen BMW mention this oil in their literature...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003481632_20100319220_2.pdf
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yup... SOPUS has a 10w-60 oil. It's probably just a formality for BMW to bless it for their needs...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
The older version of this product did in fact specifically mention the BMW M approval, although I have never seen BMW mention this oil in their literature...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003481632_20100319220_2.pdf
Yeah, why drop the M qualification after 2010 or so? It does appear this stuff is ready to work in BMW's M engines. Thicker than honey on a winter's day.
Yup... SOPUS has a 10w-60 oil. It's probably just a formality for BMW to bless it for their needs...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
The older version of this product did in fact specifically mention the BMW M approval, although I have never seen BMW mention this oil in their literature...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003481632_20100319220_2.pdf
Yeah, why drop the M qualification after 2010 or so? It does appear this stuff is ready to work in BMW's M engines. Thicker than honey on a winter's day.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Why would they have oils ready? I'm sure they do, or are working on them, but just because a company is big, doesn't make it omnipresent. FYI, BMW also have LL-12FE and LL-14FE+ specs out there, newly-launched for their emerging new engine designs. Unlike the past, the future will not include as much forward and backward compatibility, so you can't assume that new oils will be suitable in old engines or old oils in new engines. Shell are newly hooked up with BMW, so will have to spend some time getting inside the specs.
Any why would you assume that a Ferrari factory-fill oil would automatically drop straight into BMW's engines? Or that Ferrari would allow it? Or that Shell would want to provide a Ferrari factory-fill oil in a BMW-branded service-fill bottle?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Why would they have oils ready? I'm sure they do, or are working on them, but just because a company is big, doesn't make it omnipresent. FYI, BMW also have LL-12FE and LL-14FE+ specs out there, newly-launched for their emerging new engine designs. Unlike the past, the future will not include as much forward and backward compatibility, so you can't assume that new oils will be suitable in old engines or old oils in new engines. Shell are newly hooked up with BMW, so will have to spend some time getting inside the specs.
Any why would you assume that a Ferrari factory-fill oil would automatically drop straight into BMW's engines? Or that Ferrari would allow it? Or that Shell would want to provide a Ferrari factory-fill oil in a BMW-branded service-fill bottle?
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Pennzoil has had a LL01/LL04 available in the US for a while now.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
Pennzoil has had a LL01/LL04 available in the US for a while now.
Hi SilverC6, on January 1, 2015, BMW genuine motor oil began being made exclusively by Shell utilizing Pennzoil PurePlus Technology. PurePlus Technology is a patented, revolutionary process that converts pure natural gas into the first-of-its-kind, high quality full synthetic base oil. Additionally, Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus Technology is the only aftermarket motor oil recommended by BMW in North America. - The Pennzoil Team
Hi Gena. Thanks for this information. Glad to see that SOPUS is reading this forum.
Just curious, how would an end consumer be able to identify that the oil bottles he's looking at in a BMW parts dept contain Shell oil and not Castrol?
Has the bottle been redesigned as of Jan 1, as was suggested earlier by another poster? Do you have an image you can share with us?
Also, can you provide a TDS for this product? Is it this stuff or something different?
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
Thanks!
Just curious, how would an end consumer be able to identify that the oil bottles he's looking at in a BMW parts dept contain Shell oil and not Castrol?
Has the bottle been redesigned as of Jan 1, as was suggested earlier by another poster? Do you have an image you can share with us?
Also, can you provide a TDS for this product? Is it this stuff or something different?
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Loc...n-US%29_TDS.pdf
Thanks!
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
LL12-FE ?
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
So the big question is how does Castrol continue to serve the US market with TWS?Or does Castrol just walk away from their current BMW M customers in the US?
Castrol will service any dealership who wants to stock Castrol products. Some will have BMW genuine oil and maybe offer aftermarket alternatives.
Not all dealers used GO before so why would this change just because BMW have changed who make the genuine oil. Sure shell might be prefered but do they have spec coverage for ever BMW spec yet ?
Shell is so big that I'm sure they have an oil to cover all BMW's needs. LL-01, LL-04 already exist, and Shell has a Ferrari factory fill they could use in BMW M models with little or no modification.
LL12-FE ?
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
Hi SilverC6, on January 1, 2015, BMW genuine motor oil began being made exclusively by Shell utilizing Pennzoil PurePlus Technology. PurePlus Technology is a patented, revolutionary process that converts pure natural gas into the first-of-its-kind, high quality full synthetic base oil. Additionally, Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus Technology is the only aftermarket motor oil recommended by BMW in North America. - The Pennzoil Team
Thanks Gena.
I'm a big Pennzoil fan already.
Do you see Shell's LL-01 5W-30 and Shell 10W-60 getting into commercial auto parts stores in the US?
Will these be a re-labeled version of your proven Helix oils available in Europe already?
Hi SilverC6, on January 1, 2015, BMW genuine motor oil began being made exclusively by Shell utilizing Pennzoil PurePlus Technology. PurePlus Technology is a patented, revolutionary process that converts pure natural gas into the first-of-its-kind, high quality full synthetic base oil. Additionally, Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus Technology is the only aftermarket motor oil recommended by BMW in North America. - The Pennzoil Team
Thanks Gena.
I'm a big Pennzoil fan already.
Do you see Shell's LL-01 5W-30 and Shell 10W-60 getting into commercial auto parts stores in the US?
Will these be a re-labeled version of your proven Helix oils available in Europe already?
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
How about this?
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
Hi SilverC6, on January 1, 2015, BMW genuine motor oil began being made exclusively by Shell utilizing Pennzoil PurePlus Technology. PurePlus Technology is a patented, revolutionary process that converts pure natural gas into the first-of-its-kind, high quality full synthetic base oil. Additionally, Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus Technology is the only aftermarket motor oil recommended by BMW in North America. - The Pennzoil Team
OneEyedJack posts a link that pretty much explains things. Click and read if you haven't already.
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information. I am disappointed that Shell would have a representative make such a useless fluff post.
Had this post been made by a man the post would have been dismissed as being absolutely worthless!
Scott
How about this?
Originally Posted By: GenaFishbeck
Hi SilverC6, on January 1, 2015, BMW genuine motor oil began being made exclusively by Shell utilizing Pennzoil PurePlus Technology. PurePlus Technology is a patented, revolutionary process that converts pure natural gas into the first-of-its-kind, high quality full synthetic base oil. Additionally, Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus Technology is the only aftermarket motor oil recommended by BMW in North America. - The Pennzoil Team
OneEyedJack posts a link that pretty much explains things. Click and read if you haven't already.
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information. I am disappointed that Shell would have a representative make such a useless fluff post.
Had this post been made by a man the post would have been dismissed as being absolutely worthless!
Scott
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information.
Relax. She did answer your original question, didn't she?
However, neither her answer nor the link that OneEyeJack posted explain how we can tell the two products apart, since both will just say "BMW High Performance Synthetic" on the label. That's why I asked her to clarify.
Just because SOPUS started making it on Jan 1 does not mean that BMW dealers still don't have big stashes of the old Castrol stuff on their hands.
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information.
Relax. She did answer your original question, didn't she?
However, neither her answer nor the link that OneEyeJack posted explain how we can tell the two products apart, since both will just say "BMW High Performance Synthetic" on the label. That's why I asked her to clarify.
Just because SOPUS started making it on Jan 1 does not mean that BMW dealers still don't have big stashes of the old Castrol stuff on their hands.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information.
Relax. She did answer your original question, didn't she?
However, neither her answer nor the link that OneEyeJack posted explain how we can tell the two products apart, since both will just say "BMW High Performance Synthetic" on the label. That's why I asked her to clarify.
Just because SOPUS started making it on Jan 1 does not mean that BMW dealers still don't have big stashes of the old Castrol stuff on their hands.
Pete, you are someone I both respect and like on this forum. Your posts are always unbiased and informative. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and knowledge. Seriously.
I have a strong suspicion that Gena will not, or cannot answer any of the subsequent questions regarding bottle changes, etc. These were the kinds of questions that were being asked, not PR-level statements about Shell's GTL formulations.
I'm sure Gena is a nice woman who is simply trying to do her job. But, there needs to be more thought given when a company representative makes a post on BITOG. There has to be value ad in these posts. Gena provided no information we didn't already know - and know two years ago. If specifics regarding bottle changes, roll out dates are not known, just say so. And I think this is the case.
Here's the deal, Shell is the new supplier for BMW. Shell is already in the BMW parts pipeline already. Exactly when the Shell formulations become available at the BMW parts counter is anyone's guess. Existing supplies need to be exhausted. BMW is not going to dispose of unused Castrol product! Whether or not BMW is going to change their packaging is BMW's responsibility.
This is what Gena needed to say (assuming it is indeed true), rather than post a marketing blurb about GTL.
I come from a long and successful career at a well known, Silicon Valley company that has a worldwide presence (my last project was NSA related - you don't want to know). We dealt with extremely complex technical issues and often times had to document minute details in our mainframe system's behavior and performance over the course of a project.
The fact that Castrol cannot provide a meaningful set of PDS documents, or Shell better maintaining their document library (update and then delete old of conflicting documents) is not one of protecting proprietary information. It's simply a matter of being sloppy or lazy. After all, these are multi billion dollar a year corporations.
And because Shell is a multi billion dollar company I would expect their BITOG representative be better able to provide meaningful information.
One thing I learned in my long career was; 1) if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk, 2) it's not a sin to admit you don't know the answer to something, and 3) if you don't have something meaningful to add to the conversation, be quiet and listen. IMO, Gena was guilty of #3.
And to you youngsters out there who are just starting your careers, #2 will get you far in life. It's the way you build trust amongst your colleagues. That way they know when you do make some kind of statement, they're confident you know what you're talking about.
Scott
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
And then Gena posts this PR statement. Given BITOGs history and desire for hard information, I'm am surprised at the positive comments she's received for such useless information.
Relax. She did answer your original question, didn't she?
However, neither her answer nor the link that OneEyeJack posted explain how we can tell the two products apart, since both will just say "BMW High Performance Synthetic" on the label. That's why I asked her to clarify.
Just because SOPUS started making it on Jan 1 does not mean that BMW dealers still don't have big stashes of the old Castrol stuff on their hands.
Pete, you are someone I both respect and like on this forum. Your posts are always unbiased and informative. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and knowledge. Seriously.
I have a strong suspicion that Gena will not, or cannot answer any of the subsequent questions regarding bottle changes, etc. These were the kinds of questions that were being asked, not PR-level statements about Shell's GTL formulations.
I'm sure Gena is a nice woman who is simply trying to do her job. But, there needs to be more thought given when a company representative makes a post on BITOG. There has to be value ad in these posts. Gena provided no information we didn't already know - and know two years ago. If specifics regarding bottle changes, roll out dates are not known, just say so. And I think this is the case.
Here's the deal, Shell is the new supplier for BMW. Shell is already in the BMW parts pipeline already. Exactly when the Shell formulations become available at the BMW parts counter is anyone's guess. Existing supplies need to be exhausted. BMW is not going to dispose of unused Castrol product! Whether or not BMW is going to change their packaging is BMW's responsibility.
This is what Gena needed to say (assuming it is indeed true), rather than post a marketing blurb about GTL.
I come from a long and successful career at a well known, Silicon Valley company that has a worldwide presence (my last project was NSA related - you don't want to know). We dealt with extremely complex technical issues and often times had to document minute details in our mainframe system's behavior and performance over the course of a project.
The fact that Castrol cannot provide a meaningful set of PDS documents, or Shell better maintaining their document library (update and then delete old of conflicting documents) is not one of protecting proprietary information. It's simply a matter of being sloppy or lazy. After all, these are multi billion dollar a year corporations.
And because Shell is a multi billion dollar company I would expect their BITOG representative be better able to provide meaningful information.
One thing I learned in my long career was; 1) if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk, 2) it's not a sin to admit you don't know the answer to something, and 3) if you don't have something meaningful to add to the conversation, be quiet and listen. IMO, Gena was guilty of #3.
And to you youngsters out there who are just starting your careers, #2 will get you far in life. It's the way you build trust amongst your colleagues. That way they know when you do make some kind of statement, they're confident you know what you're talking about.
Scott
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