Battery bad in truck but guy at Sears says "GOOD"

[syndini]

Anybody here ever have this problem. The batteries in my 2006 Ford will hardly turn the ole' diesel over until it's been started once and the alt. has juiced em up. After that they turn the engine over ok. That creates a problem since I can't duplicate the really slow hard cranking after I've started it and driven over to Sears. The Sears guy is obviously lacking training cause he tried to test the batteries individually while they were both still wired together. Maybe it's me and I'm the dummy but I'm pretty sure you can't get an accurate test while the batteries are still hooked to one another in parallel. So, I take em out, let em sit overnight and carry them over to Sears in the back of another vehicle. The manufacturers technical specs for field testing this battery say that after receiving a full charge and resting for 10 to 12 hours you can check the voltage. If the voltage is below 12.6 then the battery is no longer any good and should be replaced. He tested them with his hand held and told me they were good and that it was a 12 volt battery reading 12.4 volts therefore was pretty good. Meter also claimed CCA in spec to but since it wasn't 32 degrees out I'm not sure that spec could be accurate. I don't know if his hand held tester is not properly set up to test this type of battery or he just lacks training but if it won't crank the truck and everything else is good then the batteries must be bad. Maybe I need some educating here. Can any of you brilliant engineers on here enlighten me to my misunderstandings of the battery if I'm wrong in my thinking here or, give me an angle to make this young man understand that the batteries really are bad no matter what his little hand held meter is saying.

 

[bdcardinal]

Are you trying to have them replaced under a Sears warranty? The store requires the worker to have a failed test printout to let them warranty replace the battery. They can make exceptions, but if you have to many as an associate, you are fired. In some situations, I may or may not have tested a known bad battery in order to take care of a customer.

 

[Rendezvous]

If it's reading 12.4 volts then its most likely sulfated. You can trying charging them but most likely it wont fully charge again.

 

[raytseng]

perhaps there's something else making your truck really hard to start when dead cold. see all the circular discussions on oil for cold start.

You should try switching in a known good battery in on a "cold" day If you still have trouble starting with the good battery, then it's not the battery.
But if I were you, i'd just attach a battery minder or other trickle charger for a few days and see if that helps. Helps that I have a battery minder though.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I can't claim to have operated any battery testers, but I also don't believe the stores when they are trying to get out of warranty coverage.

The 12.4v could indicate not that the batteries are bad, but that they are not fully charged.

Most people assume the alternator is an almighty near instant battery charger, but the fact remains that taking a battery from 80% to 100% takes many hours and voltages in the mid to upper 14s.

If you have ever needed to jumpstart these batteries, and have not driven the vehicle for at least 6 hours, non stop, then the batteries are not fully charged. Depending on the voltage regulator and the capability of the alternator, and the cabling between alternator and batteries, this 6 hour figure might double.

When a lead acid battery is not returned to full charge, it degrades and loses capacity. The lower it sits below 100%, and the longer it sits there, the faster the capacity is lost.

I'd check your battery cables for corrosion, and your engine ground for corrosion, and the connections on the back of the alternator for corrosion, and this means removal and physical cleaning, not just a quick glance and a declaration that they are 'just fine'.

I'd also get a 10 amp charger and put it on overnight on each battery individually.

I'd hate to be the one to warranty batteries. Batteries within the warranty period are usually killed by improper, incomplete recharging, and the incorrect mindset of the populace that the alternator is capable of the impossible. Which is fully charging a depleted battery quickly. Most of the populace has no idea that the battery for best life needs to stay as close to fully charged as possible at all times either.

Full charging any well depleted lead acid battery takes time, no matter how big and shiny the alternator, and no matter its rating. Hours and hours. No way around this fact.

If you ever need a jumpstart, then a battery charger needs to be employed ASAP and for long enough to get the battery above 95% charged. Not doing this is pretty much a death sentence for a battery, unless drive times are long enough to get the battery up over the 80% threshold. This can also take a long while depending on the alternator and the cabling and what the voltage regulator allows.

So, I am not necessarily hoping you get new batteries for free, their failure could be all your fault, not that of Sears and whomever manufactured the batteries for them.

Putting them on a battery charger and insuring they are fully charged could eliminate your slow cranking complaint and you could possible get years more of life out of them.

Expecting the alternator to fully recharge them is simply folly.

 

[raytseng]

What he said except for the 10amp charger. If you are going to use a charger for yourself, you should be using a smart charger of some kind. If you care about your battery and your smart charger happens to have a 10amp setting you would never use that setting but charge it much more slowly

10amp and other fixed rate chargers are for shops to quick charge a customers battery and get them on the road whithin a few hour or so

 

[wrcsixeight]

A battery sized for a diesel truck can easily accept 10 amps. A depleted battery sized for a Diesel truck can easily accept 70 amps.

I regularly feed my group 31 deep cycle battery with 41 amps. I have seen my alternator feed it 75 amps.

I have a group 27 Northstar AGM battery. When depleted, I have seen this accept 110 amps from my Alternator!

Don't fear a 10 amp charger on this size battery.

Most battery manufacturers who make deep cycle batteries have a recommended rate of about 10% the capacity of the battery (at the 20 hour rate) Trojan recommends 10 to 13%. UsBattery recommends 10%, Odyssey recommends no less than 40% on a deeply cycled Odyssey AGM battery!

So a 100 amp hour battery, which is about the capacity of a group 27 battery, which is likely the minimum size used in a diesel truck, would be a recommended 10 amp rate.

Starting batteries are made for higher discharge rates than deep cycle batteries, and as such, can also accept higher charging rates due to the thinner more numerous plates within each cell.

It is the battery itself which determines how much amperage it needs to be held at a certain charging voltage. The smart charger is applying its amperage and keeping the voltage from rising above a certain level. As the battery nears this maximum voltage level, the absorption voltage, then amps begin to taper.

Do not fear a 10 amp charger. Do not fear a 25 amp charger on a group 27 battery. Do fear the trickle charge mentality. Trickle charge is generally 2 amps or so.

12.4 resting volts equates to ~ 60% state of charge on a healthy battery, so 40 amp hours shy of full charge on a 100 amp hour group 27. At 2 amps it would take 20 hours to fully charge the battery, IF there is no tapering of current as battery gets above 80% state of charge.

There will be tapering.

Also, on chronically undercharged batteries, voltages as high as 16 volts can be required to return the specific gravity to the maximum. A group 27 battery rated at 100 amp hours would need at least 5 amps of current, after a normal "full charge" to raise the battery up to 16 volts.

Technically, low and slow is the least abusive way to charge a battery, and people seem to love the word 'trickle' when charging batteries, but the fact is that batteries can easily accept large currents when depleted, and 10 amps into a 100 amp hour battery is nothing for it, and it is the recommended rate by the battery manufacturer.

A "trickle" charger might not ever go over 13.6 volts. It is generally accepted that a battery needs time at absorption voltages in the mid 14's to get above the 80% charge level.

A trickle charger might never get the battery that high, might never be able to return a batteries specific gravity to 1.275 or higher, and will likely never be able to actually fully charge a battery, and certainly not an abused sulfated group 27 battery.


After a jumpstart, a depleted battery will suck up everything the alternator can make, until battery voltage approaches absorption voltage, or the maximum voltage the voltage regulator allows. This can easily be 60 to 80 amps for a depleted group 27 battery rated at 100 amp hours capacity.

Manual chargers employ no voltage regulation. A 10 amp manual charger left on a battery too long can indeed overcharge it, but battery resistance will reduce amperage to about 5 at 16.5 volts. But this is too high and will cause excessive bubbling and water loss. Shops trying to quick charge batteries use at least 50 amp manual chargers. They would laugh at 10 amps unless the battery is something tiny, like for a 1.5 liter 4 cylinder. Certainly not a 55 LB group 27 battery for a diesel.

A steady 5 amps applied on an abused and sulfated and depleted 100 amp hour battery until 16 volts is reached, stands the best chances at safely redissolving the sulfates back into the electrolyte and restore maximum possible remaining capacity.

10 amps on this size battery is nothing and I would consider it to be the minimum amperage to apply, unless one had a constant current 5 amp charger and the ability and time to monitor voltage and Specific gravity.

I'd personally put this OP's battery on my 41 amp power supply after making sure none of the cells plates were exposed to air. If they were i would fill them with distilled or deionized h20 until the level just covered the exposed plates and no more. Then I would set the power supply voltage to 14.7 if the battery was 77 degrees fahrenheit, and attach the clips to the battery.

Higher charging voltage at lower temps and lower charging voltage at higher temps

After the amperage tapered to ~2 amps to hold 14.7volts, I would raise the voltage slowly until the battery was accepting 5 amps, and keep raising voltage slowly not to exceed 5 amps until 16 volts is measured at the battery terminals.
I would take hydrometer readings every 10 minutes holding 16 volts, accounting for temperature and rising electrolyte temperature, and I would stop charging when electrolyte Specific gravity quit rising, or when battery temperature approached 120 F.

This is a proper equalization procedure on a 100 amp hour battery, and stands the best chance of safely and timely restoring an abused chronically undercharged battery to maximum capacity and performance.

Then I would do the same to the other battery. Top off electrolyte in both batteries with distilled or deionized h20, then Install them in the truck.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

 

[Colt45ws]

Just for information, this vehicle has two group 65 batteries wired in parallel.

The method of testing they are using is known to be pretty reliable.
Most people don't know it, but they often have a mode to monitor start voltage while cranking.
I suspect the batteries are indeed good, but if this is something you have noticed getting worse then I would check and clean all the cables including the engine and frame ground connections before I spend $150-200 on a new set of batteries. Don't just replace one; thats the worst idea.
I also agree with trying to charge the batteries off the vehicle on a smart charger. On my own group 65 batteries in my Crown Vics I was a 12amp mode on my charger. Most of the time I pull them out and they are around 80-85% charged. Ive found that what is going on is the temperature compensation is too aggressive at tapering off the charge voltage. It starts off good, but as the motor warms up it quickly tapers to 13.8-14V, which is more like 13.6 at the battery once you get through all the connections and cabling. So they are chronically undercharged. On my 2004 Ive actually modified the table the PCM uses to determine commanded alternator voltage to use more voltage longer.
But yeah, I woudl check all the cable ends; Ive had that problem too where I noticed the engine was cranking slower and taking longer to light off. I found the positive battery cable was corroding at the starter connection. So I cleaned it up.

 

[pcoxe]

Test results are dependent on whether they are trying to sell you a new battery or trying to avoid early warranty replacement.

 

[Nukeman7]

You need to have a second (or third) opinion to validate or refute SEARS claim. Just run down to Advance Auto and/or Autozone and have them do the load test on the batteries for free. Ask for the printout so you can compare the voltage and amperage values to what SEARS told you. Auto parts stores are usually trying to sell you a battery, so the results may be interesting. As they say, knowledge is power!

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: pcoxe
Test results are dependent on whether they are trying to sell you a new battery or trying to avoid early warranty replacement.


The Midtronics tester I used doesn't allow for fudge factor. It complains about bad cable connections. It has you point an infared doohickey at the battery to take its temperature, and compensates its math internally. It will work on a somewhat discharged battery. The threshold for failure/ battery replacement is 50% of rated CCW, BTW. We used this on every oil change to show customers battery health, and got an occasional upsale on a car that still cranked fine (gear reduction starter... draws 150-200 amps) but had a sick battery. We'd have warrantied a battery under the same conditions. (tire/parts shop like a pep girls.) The chain of command was loose enough that if a slip showed it was bad, that was all we needed. Even the store manager liked getting the customers free stuff and "sticking it to the man."

Its one fallability, described in the instructions, is that a brand new battery has more than 100% CCA. So a 750 will show around 870. I leveraged this to my advantage, with a nosey customer watching over my shoulder, to demonstrate that "he got a ringer."

Q: Are both batteries the same brand and age? If you have one worse than the other it'll drag down the pair.

 

[roadrunner1]

To the OP, you are driving an '06 Ford diesel, which makes it a 6.0. The FICM is extremely voltage sensitive and battery voltage is extremely important in this truck. I suggest getting a battery minder to keep batteries topped up at all times. If Sears says they're good and won't warranty them this is your next step to ensure you are supplying adequate voltage to your system.
Next get your alternator checked, these were known weak points if the truck wasn't ordered with an heavy duty one as the glow plug system along with injectors and everything else max the system out.

Buy a scangaugeII or similar OBDII reader and check your FICM voltage, it should never drop below 45 volts, even when starting the truck. The FICM steps up the voltage to 48 volts to operate the injectors, and as I mentioned earlier is extremely voltage sensitive and will fail if you are attempting to start the truck with under charged batteries.

 

[syndini]

MAN! Now that's what I'm talking about! Guys that know their stuff. Based on the posts I'm reading it seems to support my assumption that different batteries have different charging needs. Let me add some information. These Sears Die Hard Platinums are Odyssey batteries in Die Hard outer skin. Did my research before I bought em cause I was gonna buy Odyssey batteries until I found out the Die Hard platinum were in fact the EXACT SAME as the odyssey group 65 model 1750. Contacted the manufacturer of Odyssey to get info on it and they confired it. Even have a printed out email from them confirming that fact in my battery folder with my purchase papers and all information on this battery. I have several Odyssey batteries and am familiar with the technical aspects on proper charging and checking. Heck, I even own their Odyssey charger which charges them to their specific standards. Heck, I have one Odyssey that's about 12 years old.

As far as the vehicle, it is a 2006 Ford diesel with that aweful 6.0 which also has that very sensitive fuel injection control module (FICM) which has now been trashed due to the batteries poor performance in the morning. I am in the process now of making sure that everything in the electrical system is up to snuff before replacing the VERY EXPENSIVE FICM. This ole Ford uses 2 group 65 batteries. If I put the charger on it from the time I get home til I start it in the morning it turns over great and my voltage stays in an acceptable range. The problem comes when they sit for 10 hours after charge. Then they don't want to wake up. The alternator is a replacement from DC Power and is an upgrade from the OEM. it's a 185 unit and is in great shape. However, I'm sure that only a super high output alternator is adequate for short trips. Extra cables were added from the alternator to the battery to handle the extra output as recommended by the techs at DC Power.

Maybe I should take my info up the chain of command at Sears.

 

[syndini]

I also want to add that these batteries do not pass Odyssey's field test procedure which is charge them to a full charge using their charger, let them sit for 10 to 12 hours then check the voltage. If below 12.6 volts, replace. I've done all this and they don't pass.

 

[kb27]

Seems to me, the battery is sulfated.

 

[syndini]

OH, by the way. Roadrunner, I do have an Edge insight monitor which reads exactly what the computer sees straight from the OBD II port. While cranking on a chilly morning I'm seeing under 10 volts and the FICM dips to around 40 volts, sometimes less.

Secondly, a 2015 6.7 liter powerstroke. As Doc Holiday would say, "Now I'm sure I don't like him!" Hey, wanna trade?

 

[roadrunner1]

Get a hold of [email protected] He is well respected and will take care of you. I had two 6.0's and never had any problems associated with them, although I did trash a FICM in my '07 when it was new. I was in -40 temps and was draining the batteries pumping fuel out of aux tank. It was replaced under Ford warranty no charge as its an emissions part. Sounds like your batteries are getting weak, but the FICM is causing the cold hard start, when its warm it will mask its internal failure.

 

[syndini]

Roadrunner. The rate of engine turnover when cold is so slow it almost hangs up. Got several issues that need correcting. Been in touch with Ed at FICMrepair. Following procedure as outlined by him to make sure the FICM stays healthy. At present, the batteries don't make the cut so I am addressing that first as outlined. Eventually the FICM will be swapped out for one of his. Guys like you turned me on to him. Thanks.

 

[Donald]

Assuming the truck has two batteries....

Did you disconnect one and then test each separately? They should also be replaced in pairs for longest life of each.

The good Midtronics testers can temp compensate. The less expensive ones do not. A carbon pile tester is the best but again, disconnect one battery. charge up each one by itself and test by itself.

The best way to test using a conductive test is the clamp of the tester right to the battery post. Not to the battery clamp.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Syndini,

Thanks for the additional info. I kind of suspected you had the platinum AGM batteries but I still went into the procedure for equalizing a flooded battery.

One reason Sears might be reluctant to warranty them, is that there is a rumor floating around that Odyssey will quit making the DHP for Sears at some point, if they have not already. I don't know if this is true, and if so who is bailing on whom. I read it here @ post 333:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/14285-Odyssey-vs-Diehard-Platinum/page34

I spoke with an Odyssey engineer for a good half hour about the proper charging procedure on a deeply cycled AGM.

He stressed that if the deeply cycled battery did not get the 40% rate until 14.7v was reached, then the battery simply would not reach maximum energy density.

I asked because I was interested in using them where the primary recharging source would be 200 watts of solar, that maxes out at 13 amps on june21. He confirmed that the Odyssey battery would not be good for this application.

He did say that if their battery were chronically undercharged then it would take 3 discharges down to 50% state of charge, and recharges at the minimum 40% rate to 14.7v and then hold 14.7 for 4 hours. After 3 discharges to 50% followed quickly by high amp rate recharges the battery, should be restored to its maximum remaining capacity.

He also said that very low currents could be used to very slowly bring the odyssey battery to 16.5v and that this could fully charge it, and that these low currents would not cause enough psi to pop the vents.

Anyway, if Sears remains petulant, and gives you no love perhaps this discharge to 50% and using your Odyssey charger, which must be capable of at least 29.6 amps to meet the 40% rate on just one group 65 battery, 3 times in a row can restore the lost performance.

Group 65 batteries are kind of an odd duck. Somehow they always seem to have higher CCA figures than their capacity would indicate, even with flooded batteries. The 950 CCA on a 74 amp hour battery is quite high. Considering the significantly larger group 31 Odyssey battery has 26 more amp hours and only 100 more CCA.

If Sears does in fact give you no love, and the 3 discharges to 50% and high recharge rate does not restore performance, then you will be shopping for new batteries, and will probably seek the highest CCA available, again.

Could you shoehorn 2 group 31 batteries in the group 65 location?

My Northstar group 27 AGM battery at 930 CCA and 91 amp hours has been an impressive battery for me. I mostly use it as a starting battery, but I do cycle it as well, and it responds favorably to 41 amps recharge rate, and not so well to the ~13 amps of solar.

Northstar says their fully charged resting voltage is over 13 volts. I have found my NS group 27 is 13.06v. When I first got it, I could not get the resting voltage over 12.84v. The 'smart' charger kept shutting off. It was not until I discharged it to 50% then charged it at 25 amps at 14.7v that it rested at 13.06 volts. Later I got the 41 amp charging source.

It is 14 months old now, has perhaps 40 deep cycles on it and still holds this 13.06v. It still cranks my starter motor hideously fast, even when overnight cold, and it catches in under a second.

When the batteries are not deeply cycled, then the 40% recharge rate and 14.7v Absorption voltage becomes less important to meet. Have you ever drained your Odysseys low and then relied on only the alternator to recharge them?

Relying on the odyssey ultimizer charger to properly charge them, when the battery is in the upper states of charge is likely not as effective as if it recharged them from 50% SOC.

What kind of voltages will your Ford voltage regulator allow?

I ask out of curiosity, and not in an accusatory manner.

LifeLine AGM batteries are pretty much the top dog AGM battery for deep cycle applications. They outline a 'conditioning procedure", which is similar to a equalization procedure for a flooded battery.

Perhaps the 3 50% discharges, followed by high amp recharges, and lifelines 'reconditioning' procedure could restore performance to your DHP's

Scroll down to chapter 5:
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf
Best of luck with this. If you have never deeply cycled these batteries and they are this behaving badly, I hope sears honors the warranty.

If you do not get any love from Sears, see of you can shoehorn in an Odyssey or Northstar group 31 battery into the group 65 location. I've been impressed with my Northstar in my 14 months of ownership.