Why Direct Injection Develop Carbon Deposits

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Originally Posted By: Mykl

Man, by that logic we should completely give up on internal combustion engines entirely. Those things are nothing but trouble.


Look on the bright side; all these hand-wringers obsess about DI "issues" so that we owners don't have to!
 
I'm pretty new to the whole diesel scene, so go easy. How is the GMC Duramax, Ram Cummins, and the 3.0L VM diesel doing in terms of DI carbon issues? I saw one guy complaining about the VM and blow-by but as it turned out it appears he wrecked his engine with his oil and Lucas cocktail, but that's going OT.
 
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: Mykl

Man, by that logic we should completely give up on internal combustion engines entirely. Those things are nothing but trouble.


Look on the bright side; all these hand-wringers obsess about DI "issues" so that we owners don't have to!


ha!
 
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
You will not be laughing when you are spending all your time in arbitration...


After 8 years and nearly 140k miles with no valve deposit issues I can't really say that I'm consumed by unspeakable dread...
 
Well the smaller diesels do have major problems, primarily because there is no oil trap/filtration system on many of them. The commercial heavy diesels all have them. The oil particulate that get drawn along with the CCV gases if filtered out. Otherwise, when it mixed with the sooty EGR feces, it would cake up like the picture showed. This is why I vented my 2006 VM diesel in my Jeep Liberty. To prevent the oily CCV gases from going in the charge air cooler and then the intake. I did that the day after I bought it new. When I gave it to my son with over 100,000 miles on it. there was only a slight trace of soot from the EGR in the intake. No appreciable buildup.

Now fast forward to today with even my 2013 Silverado. I have a oil trap/filter system, or "catch can", setup on my engine to prevent the same kind of thing. it captures about 1 oz of oil every 1000 miles. At that rate, it would have now had almost a full quart of oil dumped into the intake in the total vehicles miles on it now. Now, this engine is PI instead of DI, but if I had a DI engine, the first day after I would buy it I would put on some form of PCV filtration to keep the oil out of the intake. I am convinced that would go a long, long ways to preventing many problems down the road.

A lot of use are considered dweebs an idiots for doing this. I really don't care. I take what I have learned from my heavy diesels and apply it to my smaller stuff. I have had no regrets.
 
Another reason is that passenger car/light duty truck engines aren't often at full power for long enough to have any effect on those deposits. With these engines, the old-fashioned Italian tuneup is very necessary!
 
The Nissan ZD30 has twin butterflies in it's throttle body, and the EGR goes into one, and the breather into the other. The one with EGR has thick deposits, the breather side just has an oil film. So it's not the breather, it's the EGR. The ZD30 is a diesel.
 
Silk, that's allegedly the reason for the ZD30 meltdowns in the Navara (Patrol has variable geometry turbo to enable EGR...and melts down more often).

I did the solenoid replumbing to prevent the "swirl control", aka EGR valve, and plated the EGR.

Drivability is amazingly improved, particularly take-off on a hill.
 
As we know US is much more strict with the emissions requirements than in other parts of the world. I was reading about a guy who installed a Provent catch can in a GC diesel and he had a CEL that pointed him right to the PCV system. He discovered that people in Australia who were successful with the install didn't have as many or the same sensors in their emissions system with regard to the PCV. It took him a long time to figure it out, and he had to remove the paper element in the catch can in order to keep the CEL off. That compromised a top of the line catch can and probably defeated the whole purpose of installing it.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
As we know US is much more strict with the emissions requirements than in other parts of the world.

Not entirely true anymore. The latest Euro 6 regulation that came into effect last year is even stricter than US requirements in some aspects, to the point where VAG started installing secondary port fuel injection in their DI engines to help meet it. Interestingly, this secondary port injection is thought to help with DI deposits as a welcome side effect. Alas, sadly the VAG engines sold in NA don't have this feature.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
As we know US is much more strict with the emissions requirements than in other parts of the world.

Not entirely true anymore. The latest Euro 6 regulation that came into effect last year is even stricter than US requirements in some aspects, to the point where VAG started installing secondary port fuel injection in their DI engines to help meet it. Interestingly, this secondary port injection is thought to help with DI deposits as a welcome side effect. Alas, sadly the VAG engines sold in NA don't have this feature.


Are diesels using that injector now too? I'm still learning and have a way to go yet, but I don't think it is going to help them much. Better fuel and a good oil might help though.

One thing I do know, with the stricter rulings they'll be having the same problems or worse installing catch cans in diesel applications now.
 
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when you plumb in a catch can it needs to be a cool location to encourage the gasses to condense. If there is room in front of the radiators behind the grill is perfect. The long line from the engine to the catch can will experience build up also and will need cleaning and replacing. An aluminum body compressed air filter, with the rock type element replaced with stainless steel scrubber type is an economical choice. It will need cleaned every oil change. You may have to drain more often.

Rod
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
As we know US is much more strict with the emissions requirements than in other parts of the world.

Not entirely true anymore. The latest Euro 6 regulation that came into effect last year is even stricter than US requirements in some aspects, to the point where VAG started installing secondary port fuel injection in their DI engines to help meet it. Interestingly, this secondary port injection is thought to help with DI deposits as a welcome side effect. Alas, sadly the VAG engines sold in NA don't have this feature.


Are diesels using that injector? I'm still learning and have a way to go yet.

My comment above was in regard to gasoline DI engines, although the Euro 6 spec applies to both gasoline and diesel engines. Sorry about not being clear on that.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
As we know US is much more strict with the emissions requirements than in other parts of the world.

Not entirely true anymore. The latest Euro 6 regulation that came into effect last year is even stricter than US requirements in some aspects, to the point where VAG started installing secondary port fuel injection in their DI engines to help meet it. Interestingly, this secondary port injection is thought to help with DI deposits as a welcome side effect. Alas, sadly the VAG engines sold in NA don't have this feature.


Are diesels using that injector? I'm still learning and have a way to go yet.

My comment above was in regard to gasoline DI engines, although the Euro 6 spec applies to both gasoline and diesel engines. Sorry about not being clear on that.



No problem, I edited my post while you were posting. I was honing in on diesel.
 
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Why do consumers have to fix a problem the manufacturers should have gotten right? We have to pay 50k for a truck just to have to reengineer it?





Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well the smaller diesels do have major problems, primarily because there is no oil trap/filtration system on many of them. The commercial heavy diesels all have them. The oil particulate that get drawn along with the CCV gases if filtered out. Otherwise, when it mixed with the sooty EGR feces, it would cake up like the picture showed. This is why I vented my 2006 VM diesel in my Jeep Liberty. To prevent the oily CCV gases from going in the charge air cooler and then the intake. I did that the day after I bought it new. When I gave it to my son with over 100,000 miles on it. there was only a slight trace of soot from the EGR in the intake. No appreciable buildup.

Now fast forward to today with even my 2013 Silverado. I have a oil trap/filter system, or "catch can", setup on my engine to prevent the same kind of thing. it captures about 1 oz of oil every 1000 miles. At that rate, it would have now had almost a full quart of oil dumped into the intake in the total vehicles miles on it now. Now, this engine is PI instead of DI, but if I had a DI engine, the first day after I would buy it I would put on some form of PCV filtration to keep the oil out of the intake. I am convinced that would go a long, long ways to preventing many problems down the road.

A lot of use are considered dweebs an idiots for doing this. I really don't care. I take what I have learned from my heavy diesels and apply it to my smaller stuff. I have had no regrets.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Interestingly, this secondary port injection is thought to help with DI deposits as a welcome side effect. Alas, sadly the VAG engines sold in NA don't have this feature.


Are diesels using that injector? I'm still learning and have a way to go yet.

My comment above was in regard to gasoline DI engines, although the Euro 6 spec applies to both gasoline and diesel engines. Sorry about not being clear on that.



No problem, I edited my post while you were posting. I was honing in on diesel.


Check out this system starting to be more common in Oz
http://www.turbotune.com.au/diesel-4wd/c...on-rail-diesel/

Port petrol (gas) injection fitted to a diesel. Cn run petrol, methanol, ethanol, 50:50 ethanol/water...and importantly in my eyes, something like Techron.
 
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Why do consumers have to fix a problem the manufacturers should have gotten right? We have to pay 50k for a truck just to have to reengineer it?





Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well the smaller diesels do have major problems, primarily because there is no oil trap/filtration system on many of them. The commercial heavy diesels all have them. The oil particulate that get drawn along with the CCV gases if filtered out. Otherwise, when it mixed with the sooty EGR feces, it would cake up like the picture showed. This is why I vented my 2006 VM diesel in my Jeep Liberty. To prevent the oily CCV gases from going in the charge air cooler and then the intake. I did that the day after I bought it new. When I gave it to my son with over 100,000 miles on it. there was only a slight trace of soot from the EGR in the intake. No appreciable buildup.

Now fast forward to today with even my 2013 Silverado. I have a oil trap/filter system, or "catch can", setup on my engine to prevent the same kind of thing. it captures about 1 oz of oil every 1000 miles. At that rate, it would have now had almost a full quart of oil dumped into the intake in the total vehicles miles on it now. Now, this engine is PI instead of DI, but if I had a DI engine, the first day after I would buy it I would put on some form of PCV filtration to keep the oil out of the intake. I am convinced that would go a long, long ways to preventing many problems down the road.

A lot of use are considered dweebs an idiots for doing this. I really don't care. I take what I have learned from my heavy diesels and apply it to my smaller stuff. I have had no regrets.


You're right, but sometimes that's just the way it goes if you want something bad enough. Or you wait until the mfg gets it right.
 
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Why do consumers have to fix a problem the manufacturers should have gotten right? We have to pay 50k for a truck just to have to reengineer it?


There are myriads of instances where an OEM will not do something simply because if they can save a dollar in production, they will cut it. I have been around production assembly plants for several decades. If you think the OEM will put everything on a vehicle or engine that would benefit, you are suffering from oxygen depletion.

I am not "re-engineering" anything when I put a PCV oil catch system on my Silverado engine. I am just putting a filter to capture debris and oil particles form re-entering the engine intake. The very same concept when I put a bypass oil filtration system on my commercial heavy diesels. All in an effort to eliminate contaminates from the engine.

Why would you want to make that an issue to chide someone over? Or did I read into your post the wrong way? Wouldn't be the first time!
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Why do consumers have to fix a problem the manufacturers should have gotten right? We have to pay 50k for a truck just to have to reengineer it?


There are myriads of instances where an OEM will not do something simply because if they can save a dollar in production, they will cut it. I have been around production assembly plants for several decades. If you think the OEM will put everything on a vehicle or engine that would benefit, you are suffering from oxygen depletion.

I am not "re-engineering" anything when I put a PCV oil catch system on my Silverado engine. I am just putting a filter to capture debris and oil particles form re-entering the engine intake. The very same concept when I put a bypass oil filtration system on my commercial heavy diesels. All in an effort to eliminate contaminates from the engine.



+1
 
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