The McJob...The New Normal.

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Programming bored me to tears. I loved teaching it, but few will pay for instruction these days. I made good bank teaching Java, Solaris Admin and Networking, Sun Solaris Fault Analysis, and so on.

After the dot bomb, it seems most training has gone to be web based and/or employers expect employees to either have it or learn it on their own time. So I moved to a Systems Engineer position.

I'm fortunate that I'm as comfortable both on the Data Center floor as I am in a cube farm behind a keyboard. So I have a job that lets me do a bit of both.

I added a Cisco CCNA to my bag of tricks and Sun/Oracle certifications last spring. We use Cisco in some of our Engineered Solutions, so the justification was there for four semesters worth of training crammed into two at the local community college. A 4.0 GPA ensured I got the company tuition reimbursement.

I get to be Santa when the new gear arrives and Superman when any of it crashes. It pays well and it keeps me networked with hundreds in my industry. So it's the second best alternative to teaching.

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'm in the industry, I can see what's happening on the inside.

I work with Bangalor Bob more often than Alan from Austin or Sam from St Louis.

If you are going into this line of work, then try to find a niche that's more difficult to send overseas, which is the military and government segments, or infrastructure. Actually putting your hands on the hardware, cabling, etc.

You know, like it was when I started. When programmers might actually carry a screwdriver and not just know where to click the mouse.

Cars are not the only things the users don't understand. You may or may not be surprised at how many IT pros don't understand the systems they are administering.


Right, but unless you're willing to limit yourself to service industry work, construction, or the various building repair fields you're really limiting yourself.

The bottom line is that if you have actual skills, and may be willing to move for a job, you can find employment behind a keyboard.

I'm sorry you pine for the good old days of punch cards, but being a skilled programmer can still land you a very decent paycheck in the United States, and that's not likely to change any time soon.

*edit* - there's nothing wrong with those other jobs, not at all, but if it's not something you want to do.... then that's that.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yes, ideally you should not take out a loan to buy a house, a car, or have a kid. Instead, you should save up for all these things first and then pay cash. I'm just saying it's not always realistic. Kids are expensive. By the time you save up for them, you might be too old to have them.
smile.gif



Yep, sometimes I wish I had waited; our original plan was to pay off all school loans and then save up a bit for a house. I then found ourselves taking more and more fancy vacations; and I felt like I was waiting for no good reason, as money isn't the thing I live for. 27 felt old to have kids; and I have high hopes of seeing my great-grandkids. That's an investment I'm hoping will pan out.

I think I got lucky. Or more that I truly did. I suspect most people having kids do so by blind faith that it will all work out. So far, so good.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yes, ideally you should not take out a loan to buy a house, a car, or have a kid. Instead, you should save up for all these things first and then pay cash. I'm just saying it's not always realistic. Kids are expensive. By the time you save up for them, you might be too old to have them.
smile.gif



Yep, sometimes I wish I had waited; our original plan was to pay off all school loans and then save up a bit for a house. I then found ourselves taking more and more fancy vacations; and I felt like I was waiting for no good reason, as money isn't the thing I live for. 27 felt old to have kids; and I have high hopes of seeing my great-grandkids. That's an investment I'm hoping will pan out.

I think I got lucky. Or more that I truly did. I suspect most people having kids do so by blind faith that it will all work out. So far, so good.


I'm not planning on having kids until I'm 40, if at all.

'Course, who knows what life will bring.
 
Walmart in North Dakota starting pay is $17.40/hr because North Dakota has an unemployment rate of 1%. It's supply and demand...this isn't rocket science folks. If you are a business owner why would you volunteer to pay workers $20/hr when your competitor will pay the normal $10/hr and undercut you and put you out of business. Supply and demand is Economics 101. Our wonderful "recovered" economy is the dumps and there is HIGH unemployment...gee I wonder why the local warehouse treats me like I am replaceable. Hint..you are.

Business do not begin simply to give people jobs. They come into existence to make money.

The truth isn't "feel good and warm and fuzzy" but this is how the world has been since the dawn of man...it's a tough and mean world out there and NOBODY will hand you a livelihood. Young folks care more about the right to smoke pot than a strong economy...then they will just have to enjoy living with mommy and daddy until they are 40. They have yet to learn feelings mean squat when it comes to putting food on the table, a roof over your head and clothes on your back.

If your daughter majored in African Bush studies and their son to major in basket weaving and wonders why their kids have no jobs then maybe they should start a business, hire their kids and pay them six figure salaries. There are VERY limited college degrees where you will see a return on your investment. People continuously send there kids off to school to get useless degrees in private college only to saddle them with $300k/debt. If you want my honest opinion on most of our problems it is that WAY TOO MANY people go to college who should not. Your community does not need 500 art majors. You are a bad parent if you allow your child to owe $300k in student loans where they will end up paying $1,200/month for 30+ years with interest...unless they will be a surgeon or other high paid careers.

Diesel mechanics are in big demand. Most kids don't want to say they are a diesel mechanic, they want to say they went to private school with green lawns and got drunk. People look down on blue collar workers which is unfortunate.

I hear of kids leaving college with a piece of useless paper and $200,000 naive and not much smarter than when they entered. It makes me shake my head. Reality is going to smack them upside the head and put them on their [censored].

http://dailysignal.com/2014/06/10/drilling-innovation-forcing-walmart-north-dakota-pay-17-40-hour/

People love to knock on those from Mexico stealing there jobs but I see them starting businesses and working extremely hard...yeah it may even be a dirty job but to them getting dirty means making money...and they do.
 
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Originally Posted By: GMFan
Walmart in North Dakota starting pay is $17.40/hr because North Dakota has an unemployment rate of 1%. It's supply and demand...this isn't rocket science folks. If you are a business owner why would you volunteer to pay workers $20/hr when your competitor will pay the normal $10/hr and undercut you and put you out of business. Supply and demand is Economics 101. Our wonderful "recovered" economy is the dumps and there is HIGH unemployment...gee I wonder why the local warehouse treats me like I am replaceable. Hint..you are.

Business do not begin simply to give people jobs. They come into existence to make money.

The truth isn't "feel good and warm and fuzzy" but this is how the world has been since the dawn of man...it's a tough and mean world out there and NOBODY will hand you a livelihood. Young folks care more about the right to smoke pot than a strong economy...then they will just have to enjoy living with mommy and daddy until they are 40. They have yet to learn feelings mean squat when it comes to putting food on the table, a roof over your head and clothes on your back.

If your daughter majored in African Bush studies and their son to major in basket weaving and wonders why their kids have no jobs then maybe they should start a business, hire their kids and pay them six figure salaries. There are VERY limited college degrees where you will see a return on your investment. People continuously send there kids off to school to get useless degrees in private college only to saddle them with $300k/debt. If you want my honest opinion on most of our problems it is that WAY TOO MANY people go to college who should not. Your community does not need 500 art majors. You are a bad parent if you allow your child to owe $300k in student loans where they will end up paying $1,200/month for 30+ years with interest...unless they will be a surgeon or other high paid careers.

Diesel mechanics are in big demand. Most kids don't want to say they are a diesel mechanic, they want to say they went to private school with green lawns and got drunk. People look down on blue collar workers which is unfortunate.

I hear of kids leaving college with a piece of useless paper and $200,000 naive and not much smarter than when they entered. It makes me shake my head. Reality is going to smack them upside the head and put them on their [censored].

http://dailysignal.com/2014/06/10/drilling-innovation-forcing-walmart-north-dakota-pay-17-40-hour/

People love to knock on those from Mexico stealing there jobs but I see them starting businesses and working extremely hard...yeah it may even be a dirty job but to them getting dirty means making money...and they do.


The only thing I have to say to this is community college and math/ science degrees. Lol.

Majoring in the mating cycle of a watermelon, archaeology, etc. is a huge waste.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


The only thing I have to say to this is community college and math/ science degrees. Lol.

Majoring in the mating cycle of a watermelon, archaeology, etc. is a huge waste.


Sure, colleges love taking people's money...it's being handed to them left and right as people try to keep up with the Joneses. Most colleges are nothing more than the equivalent of a shady used car dealer selling cars with sludged engines. They both know exactly what they're doing and they sleep on a bed of money as a result. It's just that rather than the salesman with slick hair and expensive wristwatch the college deans have those fancy wood paneled offices and there are lots of pretty girls running around on campus during the college tour. The fact is just as there is a market for poor car purchasing decisions there is also an even more profitable market on taking advantage of foolish people's education decisions. Caveat Emptor.
 
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
Programming bored me to tears. I loved teaching it, but few will pay for instruction these days. I made good bank teaching Java, Solaris Admin and Networking, Sun Solaris Fault Analysis, and so on.

After the dot bomb, it seems most training has gone to be web based and/or employers expect employees to either have it or learn it on their own time. So I moved to a Systems Engineer position.

I'm fortunate that I'm as comfortable both on the Data Center floor as I am in a cube farm behind a keyboard. So I have a job that lets me do a bit of both.

I added a Cisco CCNA to my bag of tricks and Sun/Oracle certifications last spring. We use Cisco in some of our Engineered Solutions, so the justification was there for four semesters worth of training crammed into two at the local community college. A 4.0 GPA ensured I got the company tuition reimbursement.

I get to be Santa when the new gear arrives and Superman when any of it crashes. It pays well and it keeps me networked with hundreds in my industry. So it's the second best alternative to teaching.


It's funny that you say that you enjoyed teaching programming more than you actually enjoy doing it, because I had that same exact experience and only just realized it.

I ended up going down the network security path and have picked up a few SANS certs. CISSP is in my future when I stop being lazy about it.

All I was really trying to hint at was that skills are skills. If you can type 80-90 wpm if nothing else you can feed yourself on a data entry job, not that this is idea, but I'd take it over a minimum wage in a warehouse.

I guess if I've learned anything it's that the ability to be flexible and having a willingness to learn are the two most important things aside from having some sort of skill.
 
One of my best friends had very limited funds to go to school. He earned a chemistry degree from an inexpensive "commuter" state university, working part-time and living with his parents to save money. After graduating he got a entry level job as a grade 1 chemist in a tire plant outside of Chicago. He worked that full time job and went to night school (commuting 20-30 miles each way) for 3-4 years to earn a masters degree in Chemistry and then commuted to Purdue at night while still working full time for another 2 years to earn his MBA degree. Today he routinely earns $200k+ per year. Success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Earning a good living is tough and getting tougher but hard work, serious hustle and determination can still get you there.

Most young people I meet today (24-29 yo range) are so unmotivated and lazy it seems they are almost a different species.
 
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There do seem to be some overprivileged young folks nowdays, but others work very hard and want to learn. My son is a machinist and so far is doing well considering the economy now. My stepson is working on his masters in computer science. But there are still a lot of folks out there who aren't capable of doing this, and mfg jobs and warehouse, etc used to be middle class jobs. Now they're paying poverty wages. It's just a shame what our country has become.
 
Cashmoney:
Most young people I meet today (24-29 yo range) are so unmotivated and lazy it seems they are almost a different species. [/quote]

Something changed on a grand scale.
 
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Originally Posted By: Silverado12
There do seem to be some overprivileged young folks nowdays, but others work very hard and want to learn. My son is a machinist and so far is doing well considering the economy now. My stepson is working on his masters in computer science. But there are still a lot of folks out there who aren't capable of doing this, and mfg jobs and warehouse, etc used to be middle class jobs. Now they're paying poverty wages. It's just a shame what our country has become.


Why should a job that almost any entry level worker with no post-high school training can perform pay well? It's market driven, just as it's market driven that people constantly upgrade their skills. There is also a lot of untapped potential for people to develop skills and fill niche markets.

Keep in mind that the time period that you're lamenting over didn't have a lot of the toys that everyone today thinks they need. No smart phones and $100/month plans, no pay television, no dinners out, cheaper vehicles, no boats, no designer jeans, etc. Factor out all of the modern toys that so many people think they need to have and you have a living wage with most warehouse or factory work.

We pay our employees extremely well, and as a business owner it's my choice to do so. However I do require a high level of dedication; in order to achieve that I give every employee a vested interest in the company. The more profitable we are, the more they make. That makes them constantly look for ways to improve processes and systems, knowing that what they do puts more money directly in their pocket. If I were to hire all minimum wage employees I would not get the same level of employee, nor would I expect as much from them. Not everyone can do what we do, but every one of our staff could do warehouse or assembly line work if they had to. Hence our employees are a more valuable asset than an assembly line, warehouse or general labor worker and get paid accordingly.

There are some people who will never be able to move beyond flipping burgers or bolting together widgets. There is also a tremendous safety net for them that didn't exist "back in the day". If they are that bad off there are food banks that help, government programs that help, and religious organizations that help. However, there will always be a number of "working poor". There always has been and always will be in a capitalist economy. You can't help every puppy in the pound.
 
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
There do seem to be some overprivileged young folks nowdays, but others work very hard and want to learn. My son is a machinist and so far is doing well considering the economy now. My stepson is working on his masters in computer science. But there are still a lot of folks out there who aren't capable of doing this, and mfg jobs and warehouse, etc used to be middle class jobs. Now they're paying poverty wages. It's just a shame what our country has become.


Why should a job that almost any entry level worker with no post-high school training can perform pay well? It's market driven, just as it's market driven that people constantly upgrade their skills. There is also a lot of untapped potential for people to develop skills and fill niche markets.

Keep in mind that the time period that you're lamenting over didn't have a lot of the toys that everyone today thinks they need. No smart phones and $100/month plans, no pay television, no dinners out, cheaper vehicles, no boats, no designer jeans, etc. Factor out all of the modern toys that so many people think they need to have and you have a living wage with most warehouse or factory work.

We pay our employees extremely well, and as a business owner it's my choice to do so. However I do require a high level of dedication; in order to achieve that I give every employee a vested interest in the company. The more profitable we are, the more they make. That makes them constantly look for ways to improve processes and systems, knowing that what they do puts more money directly in their pocket. If I were to hire all minimum wage employees I would not get the same level of employee, nor would I expect as much from them. Not everyone can do what we do, but every one of our staff could do warehouse or assembly line work if they had to. Hence our employees are a more valuable asset than an assembly line, warehouse or general labor worker and get paid accordingly.

There are some people who will never be able to move beyond flipping burgers or bolting together widgets. There is also a tremendous safety net for them that didn't exist "back in the day". If they are that bad off there are food banks that help, government programs that help, and religious organizations that help. However, there will always be a number of "working poor". There always has been and always will be in a capitalist economy. You can't help every puppy in the pound.


I admire your approach, Pop_Rivit. I also can bring a lot to the company I work for. Not long ago, I was "working fast food" - burgers are not flipped, thank you
smile.gif
- and "would you like fries with that" days are done.

I actually have two jobs.
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Many high school kids look at tradesmen as ditry, uneducated men.

Kids want a job behind a computer screen and not get dirty.



I've met a lot of these. Went through 17 probable candidates before i found a good one last year. Amazing when the first thing an applicant asks is "do your trucks have AC?"

That said, I raised 3 kids as a single father in my biz, and my techs make 50k easy and 70k if they hustle a bit in one of the most competitive fields around anywhere...
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Like anything else, it is what you make of it.


I agree. I just graduated last month with my bachelor's degree. I was fortunate to get a job in the University's Data Center Operations as a student employee, and learned a lot while working there. The skills and reputation I earned from working there probably helped me land my new job more than the degree did.

A strong work ethic and positive attitude along with being willing to learn and add value to an organization is what will get someone a job. I know too many people going to college who have no part-time job. They go to school, party when they aren't in class, and then get out of school with a bunch of debt and a piece of paper thinking they will get a job. That isn't how it works. You have to prove to an employer that you will add value to their organization. Unfortunately, I feel many people my age have the opposite opinion. They feel that since they have the degree that companies should be seeking them out and doing things for them.

My father works in the IT field as a director and he has told me that while degrees are important, the work ethic and attitude of employees is what gives them the competitive edge. There are too many lazy people out there who think the world owes them something. I think our generation is in for a big wake-up call.
 
'prone -- maybe you could talk to pop or steve srt8 about possible employment. you show initiative, and a good work ethic, having two jobs.
when these type of threads appear, these gentlemen often chime in and state how successful are their businesses, and that they pay their employees an excellent wage.if they have openings, and you don't mind relocating to earn an excellent wage, maybe they could "hook you up".it couldn't hurt to ask.
if this were to happen, the next Volvo or Honda that you buy, could be new.
food for thought.have a good night.
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Like anything else, it is what you make of it.


I agree. I just graduated last month with my bachelor's degree. I was fortunate to get a job in the University's Data Center Operations as a student employee, and learned a lot while working there. The skills and reputation I earned from working there probably helped me land my new job more than the degree did.

A strong work ethic and positive attitude along with being willing to learn and add value to an organization is what will get someone a job. I know too many people going to college who have no part-time job. They go to school, party when they aren't in class, and then get out of school with a bunch of debt and a piece of paper thinking they will get a job. That isn't how it works. You have to prove to an employer that you will add value to their organization. Unfortunately, I feel many people my age have the opposite opinion. They feel that since they have the degree that companies should be seeking them out and doing things for them.

My father works in the IT field as a director and he has told me that while degrees are important, the work ethic and attitude of employees is what gives them the competitive edge. There are too many lazy people out there who think the world owes them something. I think our generation is in for a big wake-up call.


I agree with what you said about unemployed students. I was listening to one of my favorite radio talk shows awhile back and he said he will not hire college grads who have never held a job before. If they joined sororities or fraternities instead of working and being productive while they were in school,their application goes in the trash and he won't even consider hiring them,which I 100% agree with.
 
Unless it's engineering, med school, or some very difficult major in college / university.... There is really no reason why you can't work while going to school.
 
15 hrs a week is what most engineering profs seem to recommend. Pays for gas basically and gives work experience.
 
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