Maybe the other thing to consider in using "Thinner" oils is not pumping the oil into the engine, but whether the oil will actually drain back in time for another go round. Oil that does not return to the sump quickly enough will not be there, for the oil pump to pick up. Thus, "Pour point" may be significant for something other than just the initial start.
0W30 Verses 5W30 weight oils
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Originally Posted By: jholtz
What are the disadvantages of using a 0W30 vs 5W30? I just bought a new Ecoboost Mustang that calls for 5W30. After a lot of research, I'd decided to use Mobil 1 5W30 based on oil analysis from this site and independent wear test.
Would a 0W30 offer improved wear protection?
Thanks!
Jim
From a practical standpoint, the larger the gap means more "complex" chemistry/additives to make that magic happen.
This can mean it's a higher priced item or fewer options for that oil.
Also, the larger the gap, means that "potentially" the 5w-30 will stay within the 5w-30 spec longer than the corresponding 0w-30 as the magic chemicals wear out.
When completely worn out, the 5w-30 may be more like a "28", whereas the 0w-30 maybe a "25" if you made up those weights.
All this adds up to just price,
either off the shelf, or the extra eeking out if you really use your oil for an interval until it's about to go out of spec.
What are the disadvantages of using a 0W30 vs 5W30? I just bought a new Ecoboost Mustang that calls for 5W30. After a lot of research, I'd decided to use Mobil 1 5W30 based on oil analysis from this site and independent wear test.
Would a 0W30 offer improved wear protection?
Thanks!
Jim
From a practical standpoint, the larger the gap means more "complex" chemistry/additives to make that magic happen.
This can mean it's a higher priced item or fewer options for that oil.
Also, the larger the gap, means that "potentially" the 5w-30 will stay within the 5w-30 spec longer than the corresponding 0w-30 as the magic chemicals wear out.
When completely worn out, the 5w-30 may be more like a "28", whereas the 0w-30 maybe a "25" if you made up those weights.
All this adds up to just price,
either off the shelf, or the extra eeking out if you really use your oil for an interval until it's about to go out of spec.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
How do you get "marginally faster pump- up" when the oils are well within their pumpable range through a positive displacement pump ?
How do you get more flow when the pump is (again) positive displacement ?
And flow isn't "protection".
For any reasonable starting temperature that doesn't "need" 0W, M15w30 "wins" if the above are meaningful.
So until you get down to -40*c (-40*F too...) is 0w of any benefit whatsoever... ?
I would think that a huge amount of flow at very cold temps is being diverted back to the pan via the oil pump by-pass due to excess pressure... yes, the oil is being pumped... but it's not getting to the top of the engine very quickly.
Try pouring room temp oil thru a narrow funnel... it usually flows thru the funnel fine... now do the same thing with very cold oil... it backs up in the funnel, and you need to give it time to flow thru the narrow opening.
The Esso super cold weather test videos seem to support this... the 10w30 grade takes a long time to reach the head, even though they appear to be pumpable... granted, a 10w at -35*c test temps is not ideal, but the video is interesting none the less.
How do you get "marginally faster pump- up" when the oils are well within their pumpable range through a positive displacement pump ?
How do you get more flow when the pump is (again) positive displacement ?
And flow isn't "protection".
For any reasonable starting temperature that doesn't "need" 0W, M15w30 "wins" if the above are meaningful.
So until you get down to -40*c (-40*F too...) is 0w of any benefit whatsoever... ?
I would think that a huge amount of flow at very cold temps is being diverted back to the pan via the oil pump by-pass due to excess pressure... yes, the oil is being pumped... but it's not getting to the top of the engine very quickly.
Try pouring room temp oil thru a narrow funnel... it usually flows thru the funnel fine... now do the same thing with very cold oil... it backs up in the funnel, and you need to give it time to flow thru the narrow opening.
The Esso super cold weather test videos seem to support this... the 10w30 grade takes a long time to reach the head, even though they appear to be pumpable... granted, a 10w at -35*c test temps is not ideal, but the video is interesting none the less.
The Esso tests are designed such that all of the oils with the exception of the 0W are at the limits of their pumpability WRT to the J300.
Repeat the tests at -25C, and the 10W will behave about the same as the 0W at -35.
My point is that if you do either at (say) freezing temperature, there will be effectively NO difference between the 0W and the 10W in terms of building oil pressure or transferring lube to the cams.
Case in point, M1 0W30 and 5W30...in the realms of most people's worlds, there is absolutely nothing to be gained going to the 0W version...As I said, if you NEED the 0W for your ambient, it's imperative...if you don't it gives you nothing.
Repeat the tests at -25C, and the 10W will behave about the same as the 0W at -35.
My point is that if you do either at (say) freezing temperature, there will be effectively NO difference between the 0W and the 10W in terms of building oil pressure or transferring lube to the cams.
Case in point, M1 0W30 and 5W30...in the realms of most people's worlds, there is absolutely nothing to be gained going to the 0W version...As I said, if you NEED the 0W for your ambient, it's imperative...if you don't it gives you nothing.
And at what temp does a 5w30 synthetic cease to pump...? Or a 10w...? Or an 0w....?
Are the cold cranking and pumpability test temps the theoretical limits...?
We have had a few mornings here with temps near -30*c ... Car seems to crank a little better with the 0w... but at these temps battery power is becoming a factor as well.
Are the cold cranking and pumpability test temps the theoretical limits...?
We have had a few mornings here with temps near -30*c ... Car seems to crank a little better with the 0w... but at these temps battery power is becoming a factor as well.
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Unless I move back to the Alaskan interior, I have no problem using a 5w30 in my pickup, year round even at the occasional -20F we get. Does a great job year round.
sounds like a logical reason to stick with the 5 w 30 the way I see it in comparison to liquids , zero 0 w is like water
5 W is like whole milk
10 w is like cooking oil all when they are cold only.
Unless I move back to the Alaskan interior, I have no problem using a 5w30 in my pickup, year round even at the occasional -20F we get. Does a great job year round.
sounds like a logical reason to stick with the 5 w 30 the way I see it in comparison to liquids , zero 0 w is like water
5 W is like whole milk
10 w is like cooking oil all when they are cold only.
Originally Posted By: geeman789
We have had a few mornings here with temps near -30*c ... Car seems to crank a little better with the 0w... but at these temps battery power is becoming a factor as well.
Certainly, you will get better cranking with a 0w-XX versus a 5w-XX in cold weather, even above the MRV and CCS limits. The oil pump will still pump the oil just fine, however, as Shannow points out. A starter motor is going to have more difficulty operating the oil pump, as it were, in those conditions than the engine will, of course, once it's started.
And yes, battery power is also a factor. My old F-150 can do some pretty amazing cranking in -40 with the permanent mount battery charger operational.
We have had a few mornings here with temps near -30*c ... Car seems to crank a little better with the 0w... but at these temps battery power is becoming a factor as well.
Certainly, you will get better cranking with a 0w-XX versus a 5w-XX in cold weather, even above the MRV and CCS limits. The oil pump will still pump the oil just fine, however, as Shannow points out. A starter motor is going to have more difficulty operating the oil pump, as it were, in those conditions than the engine will, of course, once it's started.
And yes, battery power is also a factor. My old F-150 can do some pretty amazing cranking in -40 with the permanent mount battery charger operational.
Originally Posted By: geeman789
And at what temp does a 5w30 synthetic cease to pump...? Or a 10w...? Or an 0w....?
Are the cold cranking and pumpability test temps the theoretical limits...?
It depends on the 5w30 synthetic. Some are closer than others to the cold pumpability limit at the 5W test temperature of -35C. But the fact that an oil is rated as a 5W means that it couldn't achieve 0W cold performance. (For the vast majority of cases. There are a few oils out there that seem to be rated at a larger W-number than they could achieve.)
A 0W is tested at -40C, and a 10W is tested at -30C.
A BITOG rule of thumb is that the viscosity will double for every 5C of cooling.
And at what temp does a 5w30 synthetic cease to pump...? Or a 10w...? Or an 0w....?
Are the cold cranking and pumpability test temps the theoretical limits...?
It depends on the 5w30 synthetic. Some are closer than others to the cold pumpability limit at the 5W test temperature of -35C. But the fact that an oil is rated as a 5W means that it couldn't achieve 0W cold performance. (For the vast majority of cases. There are a few oils out there that seem to be rated at a larger W-number than they could achieve.)
A 0W is tested at -40C, and a 10W is tested at -30C.
A BITOG rule of thumb is that the viscosity will double for every 5C of cooling.
These may help some understand viscosity better, the first one is unedited:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
aehaas
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
aehaas
About 2 years ago I assembles a 428 hot rod Pontiac engine for a friend and after start up the oil pressure was about 80 psi. He stuck his head into the car and looked at the oil pressure and said wow I need a thinner oil . What I said. After the oil warmed up the pressure dropped and all was good. Another friend has a 328 Ferrari and about 5 years ago I did the cam belts and valve lash etc and when we fired up the engine all I heard was the oil pressure is high I need thinner oil. The problem there is so much info these days that it is virtually impossible if uneducated on the subject that is being read to discern if it is fact or fiction.
...does an oil actually thicken as it heats up? I am confirming what I remember about oil. Most folks I talk with are under the impression that oil thins as it heats up...siting noisy cold valves as proof. "...as the oil heats up it thins out thereby lubricating the valves better because it is thinner." I don't know why this drives me mad.
Originally Posted By: Dominic
Very simply a 0WXX oil has a lower pour point than 5WXX, and is often lower viscosity when cold than 5WXX.
The second part of the number XW-30 or XW-40 is the high temperature viscosity.
Within a small range, a 10W-30, 5W-30, and 0W-30 will all have approximately the same high temperature (100C) viscosity when new. If you don't believe me, check this out:
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/synpower.pdf
Originally Posted By: Dominic
Very simply a 0WXX oil has a lower pour point than 5WXX, and is often lower viscosity when cold than 5WXX.
The second part of the number XW-30 or XW-40 is the high temperature viscosity.
Within a small range, a 10W-30, 5W-30, and 0W-30 will all have approximately the same high temperature (100C) viscosity when new. If you don't believe me, check this out:
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/synpower.pdf
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The viscosity of the oil as you observe it in the bottle is thicker than what it is at operating temperature. Engine oils thicken as they cool. An 0W thickens less than a 5W. An 5W thickens less than an 10W...
0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 ALL share about the same viscosity (thickness) at operating temperature which is thinner than how you observe it in the bottle.
There's hundreds, if not thousands, of videos on the Internet that show how different grade oils flow when cold/extreme cold.
0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 ALL share about the same viscosity (thickness) at operating temperature which is thinner than how you observe it in the bottle.
There's hundreds, if not thousands, of videos on the Internet that show how different grade oils flow when cold/extreme cold.
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There seems to be a lot of controversy with the 5w40 vs. the 10w40 floating around on the web. I nosily read a WRX oil debate on Facebook a while back and several folks said a 5w40 was too thin and bad for desert driving and that a 10w40 was more suitable.
Obviously, the 5w40 would be synthetic whereas the 10w40 could be either or.. Not sure what they were referring to as I didn't ask. I just posted a link confiming the OPs choice of using T6 year round was good and shared a link to BITOG.
Obviously, the 5w40 would be synthetic whereas the 10w40 could be either or.. Not sure what they were referring to as I didn't ask. I just posted a link confiming the OPs choice of using T6 year round was good and shared a link to BITOG.
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