It seems the New England Patriots are an arrogant bunch.
Deflate-gate
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Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
grampi, Agreement there. A slightly deflated ball is easier to catch and hang on to when running and getting tackled, increasing reception percentages and reducing fumbles. Since regulation is 12.5 to 13.5 checked 2 hours before the game in a room-temperature locker room, then any tampering is cheating.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
Agreed! This reminds me of people who say Bonds, Clemens, etc... were HOF'ers before using roids so it is no big deal. Yes it is. Cheating is cheating period. Frankly to me it is worse if you cheat when you don't need to.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
Agreed! This reminds me of people who say Bonds, Clemens, etc... were HOF'ers before using roids so it is no big deal. Yes it is. Cheating is cheating period. Frankly to me it is worse if you cheat when you don't need to.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
Originally Posted By: deven
Bob Kraft's was [censored] in his presser. He wants the league to apologize to the Patriots and especially to Bill Belichick and Tom Brady.
Best quote is from Sal Paolantonio of ESPN...
"As one source close to the Patriots told me, this was Robert Kraft reminding Roger Goodell who he works for"
Goodell doesn't work for Kraft. He works for all owners in the league and his job is to do what is right for the league and integrity of the game. Kraft is not the NFL. He is just one owner of one team. Maybe getting a bit arrogant and puffed up with his own self importance now like his head coach? He might want to shut up now that there is video evidence of foul play as well.
Bob Kraft's was [censored] in his presser. He wants the league to apologize to the Patriots and especially to Bill Belichick and Tom Brady.
Best quote is from Sal Paolantonio of ESPN...
"As one source close to the Patriots told me, this was Robert Kraft reminding Roger Goodell who he works for"
Goodell doesn't work for Kraft. He works for all owners in the league and his job is to do what is right for the league and integrity of the game. Kraft is not the NFL. He is just one owner of one team. Maybe getting a bit arrogant and puffed up with his own self importance now like his head coach? He might want to shut up now that there is video evidence of foul play as well.
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
Just saying PSI of football made no difference of the score.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Brady is a Hall of Famer. Under / over inflated they still would have won the game.
Why do people keep going here?...whether they would've won the game or not is besides the point...the point is, they were cheating...the outcome of the game doesn't matter...
Just saying PSI of football made no difference of the score.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
They just have it on video that he disappeared into a room with the balls, right?? Unless they saw the ball boy actually do something, we can't quite assume he tampered with the balls, although it looks bad for sure. ..... Also, I don't agree with everybody that says Belichick or Brady or anybody told him to do it, as any good ball boy knows that Brady is famous for liking softer balls.
Update: Its been reported that the ball boy went into a bathroom. Hey, he might have had to use the can, not tamper with his balls! Also, its reported that this ball boy had both the Colts and the Patriots bags of balls. Also, it was 90 seconds.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
They just have it on video that he disappeared into a room with the balls, right?? Unless they saw the ball boy actually do something, we can't quite assume he tampered with the balls, although it looks bad for sure. ..... Also, I don't agree with everybody that says Belichick or Brady or anybody told him to do it, as any good ball boy knows that Brady is famous for liking softer balls.
Update: Its been reported that the ball boy went into a bathroom. Hey, he might have had to use the can, not tamper with his balls! Also, its reported that this ball boy had both the Colts and the Patriots bags of balls. Also, it was 90 seconds.
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Maybe he was using the restroom ?
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Maybe he was using the restroom ?
Deflating balls in the restroom.
Maybe he was using the restroom ?
Deflating balls in the restroom.
Originally Posted By: MalfunctionProne
Deflating balls in the restroom.
I've done that a few times.
Deflating balls in the restroom.
I've done that a few times.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: redbone3
If the ball was inflated to 13.0 psig @ 25ºC and the temperature was then reduced to 0º C the pressure in the ball would drop to 10.7 psig.
Game time temp was 51F at the start and only fell to 42-43F by the end. Your scenario entails inflating them at 77F( 25 C )and the temp dropping all the way to 32F( 0 C ).
Not my version. Just an illustration of how much temperature affects pressure. The temperatures that count are the temperature at which the ball was inflated, and the temperature at which it was later checked.
Originally Posted By: redbone3
If the ball was inflated to 13.0 psig @ 25ºC and the temperature was then reduced to 0º C the pressure in the ball would drop to 10.7 psig.
Game time temp was 51F at the start and only fell to 42-43F by the end. Your scenario entails inflating them at 77F( 25 C )and the temp dropping all the way to 32F( 0 C ).
Not my version. Just an illustration of how much temperature affects pressure. The temperatures that count are the temperature at which the ball was inflated, and the temperature at which it was later checked.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
That's just it...Belichick and Brady will deny, deny, deny, even though there's no way the ball guy wasn't told to deflate...he certainly didn't do it on his own decision, but we may never find out for sure who ordered it...
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Now widely reported that they have a Patriots staffer disppearing into a room with the balls for a bit. On video it's said.
Correct. And it was AFTER the ref's pre-game inspection. As I recall hearing on the local sports talk this ball boy went into a room with the bag of balls on the way out to the field after they were released to him by the officials. So for those saying "when did the Patriots have a chance to do it" I think this makes it pretty clear. After the balls were inspected by the Ref's and when on the way to the field. The ball boy took an "unauthorized detour".
I would love to hear how the Patriots defenders explain this away. They have it on video. Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
That's just it...Belichick and Brady will deny, deny, deny, even though there's no way the ball guy wasn't told to deflate...he certainly didn't do it on his own decision, but we may never find out for sure who ordered it...
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
grampi, Agreement there. A slightly deflated ball is easier to catch and hang on to when running and getting tackled, increasing reception percentages and reducing fumbles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought the patriots had the fewest fumbles this year. If they've been doing this all year, it questions the entire season.
grampi, Agreement there. A slightly deflated ball is easier to catch and hang on to when running and getting tackled, increasing reception percentages and reducing fumbles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought the patriots had the fewest fumbles this year. If they've been doing this all year, it questions the entire season.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
That's just it...Belichick and Brady will deny, deny, deny, even though there's no way the ball guy wasn't told to deflate...he certainly didn't do it on his own decision, but we may never find out for sure who ordered it...
You would need to assume that a ball-boy has ZERO initiative. They are ambitious people, very crafty all on their own. I don't think we can assume Belichick or Brady told him to do it, if he did it.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Now we just have to wait to find out who had him do it? Bill B or Brady?
That's just it...Belichick and Brady will deny, deny, deny, even though there's no way the ball guy wasn't told to deflate...he certainly didn't do it on his own decision, but we may never find out for sure who ordered it...
You would need to assume that a ball-boy has ZERO initiative. They are ambitious people, very crafty all on their own. I don't think we can assume Belichick or Brady told him to do it, if he did it.
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Update: Its been reported that the ball boy went into a bathroom. Hey, he might have had to use the can, not tamper with his balls! Also, its reported that this ball boy had both the Colts and the Patriots bags of balls. Also, it was 90 seconds.
Right. The ball boy( locker room attendant some say )went into the bathroom. OK, why take the balls? Go to the bathroom 1st then get the balls.
This was after the Ref's inspection when the Patriots and Colts balls all passed. However, 11 of the 12 Patriots balls later were found to be underinflated by 2 PSI or so while all the Colts balls were within spec.
So at some point between the Ref's inspection and game time the balls were deflated. This unauthorized side trip with the game balls looks very bad for the Patriots. 90 seconds is more than enough to stick a pin into the balls and let some air out.
Update: Its been reported that the ball boy went into a bathroom. Hey, he might have had to use the can, not tamper with his balls! Also, its reported that this ball boy had both the Colts and the Patriots bags of balls. Also, it was 90 seconds.
Right. The ball boy( locker room attendant some say )went into the bathroom. OK, why take the balls? Go to the bathroom 1st then get the balls.
This was after the Ref's inspection when the Patriots and Colts balls all passed. However, 11 of the 12 Patriots balls later were found to be underinflated by 2 PSI or so while all the Colts balls were within spec.
So at some point between the Ref's inspection and game time the balls were deflated. This unauthorized side trip with the game balls looks very bad for the Patriots. 90 seconds is more than enough to stick a pin into the balls and let some air out.
So I'm not getting how people arrive at their numbers while doing the math when they say it's plausible that temperature could account for this.. I was curious so I tried on my own.
Using Gay-Lussac's Law - P1/T1 = P2/T2
Let's assume a warm inflation room, and a ball inflated to 12.5. How cold would the field have to be for the ball to get to 10.5 PSI?
Converting to Kelvin, I get 12.5/296K=10.5PSI/X
Solving for X gives me 245.9 K, which converts to -17 F
Assuming a chilly inflation room of 66F I get 12.5/292K = 10.5/X
Solving for X and converting to F I get -18.67.
So for a drop to 10.5 from 12.5 they would have had to have been playing in temperatures between -18.67 F and -17 F
That's assuming the 10.5 PSI I initially heard, but recent reports say the balls may have been closer to 11.5
Putting in 11.5 in place of 10.5 I get a range of 23 F to 31 F to account for the pressure drop if the balls were inflated in a room between 66-74 F.
As far as I can tell it was 48.9 and above on game day, or about 18 degrees warmer than the temps needed to account for the PSI drop.
Working in the other direction - Starting with 12.5 and 11.5 PSI and a low of 48.9, I get an inflation temperature of 93.13 degrees F to allow for an 11.5 PSI ball due to temperature effects.
Using Gay-Lussac's Law - P1/T1 = P2/T2
Let's assume a warm inflation room, and a ball inflated to 12.5. How cold would the field have to be for the ball to get to 10.5 PSI?
Converting to Kelvin, I get 12.5/296K=10.5PSI/X
Solving for X gives me 245.9 K, which converts to -17 F
Assuming a chilly inflation room of 66F I get 12.5/292K = 10.5/X
Solving for X and converting to F I get -18.67.
So for a drop to 10.5 from 12.5 they would have had to have been playing in temperatures between -18.67 F and -17 F
That's assuming the 10.5 PSI I initially heard, but recent reports say the balls may have been closer to 11.5
Putting in 11.5 in place of 10.5 I get a range of 23 F to 31 F to account for the pressure drop if the balls were inflated in a room between 66-74 F.
As far as I can tell it was 48.9 and above on game day, or about 18 degrees warmer than the temps needed to account for the PSI drop.
Working in the other direction - Starting with 12.5 and 11.5 PSI and a low of 48.9, I get an inflation temperature of 93.13 degrees F to allow for an 11.5 PSI ball due to temperature effects.
1) You have to use absolute pressure NOT the gauge pressure. So add the atmospheric pressure to your calculation.
2) Wet leather expands which can lead to pressure loss because the volume expands
3) People lot more talented have posted actual scientifc experiments on youtube
4) No proof has been provided (or leaked) that officials actually *measured* the pressure of the balls. NONE NADA ZERO There is certainly no *documented* proof NOR the video of official using pressure gauge to measure the pressure.
5) Use Occam's Razor
2) Wet leather expands which can lead to pressure loss because the volume expands
3) People lot more talented have posted actual scientifc experiments on youtube
4) No proof has been provided (or leaked) that officials actually *measured* the pressure of the balls. NONE NADA ZERO There is certainly no *documented* proof NOR the video of official using pressure gauge to measure the pressure.
5) Use Occam's Razor
Wow. What a crazy insane witch hunt. What do you people want to do with this equipment manager. Put him on the rack until he confesses?
I think some are missing the possiblity of Atmospheric pressure. A 1" change in the mercury in the barometer can produce a 0.5psi change in air pressure as most gauges measure relative to atmospheric pressure.
There are simply too many unknowns either way. It's not like the balls have a well defined chain of custody nor do they have details of the measurement environment.
I can see this getting even more complex for the NFL and teams. Both teams bring their balls to the official measurement station on field where time, temperature and barometric pressure are measured pre and post-game.
Good Grief, just play football already!
I don't care for either team, but deflate-gate seems much ado about nothing of consequence.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
1) You have to use absolute pressure NOT the gauge pressure. So add the atmospheric pressure to your calculation.
2) Wet leather expands which can lead to pressure loss because the volume expands
3) People lot more talented have posted actual scientifc experiments on youtube
4) No proof has been provided (or leaked) that officials actually *measured* the pressure of the balls. NONE NADA ZERO There is certainly no *documented* proof NOR the video of official using pressure gauge to measure the pressure.
5) Use Occam's Razor
There are simply too many unknowns either way. It's not like the balls have a well defined chain of custody nor do they have details of the measurement environment.
I can see this getting even more complex for the NFL and teams. Both teams bring their balls to the official measurement station on field where time, temperature and barometric pressure are measured pre and post-game.
Good Grief, just play football already!
I don't care for either team, but deflate-gate seems much ado about nothing of consequence.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
1) You have to use absolute pressure NOT the gauge pressure. So add the atmospheric pressure to your calculation.
2) Wet leather expands which can lead to pressure loss because the volume expands
3) People lot more talented have posted actual scientifc experiments on youtube
4) No proof has been provided (or leaked) that officials actually *measured* the pressure of the balls. NONE NADA ZERO There is certainly no *documented* proof NOR the video of official using pressure gauge to measure the pressure.
5) Use Occam's Razor
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