Pure Gasoline vs 10% Ethanol in newer vehicles

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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
All economics and politics aside, there's nothing wrong with E10 from an engineering perspective in post-2000 (and some even older) cars.

The benefits: its an octane booster, oxygenate, and it doesn't persist in the environment.

The downsides: there are other oxygenates/octane boosters that have an energy density that's closer to gasoline. Fuel blended with those tend to get better fuel mileage, but they're much more toxic since the other octane boosters are either organometallics or things like MTBE.

The myth: that there is such a thing as "pure" gas. Well, there is- its called Coleman stove fuel and you couldn't run it in an internal combustion engine with a compression ratio over 5:1... But the gas sold as "ethanol free" still has TONS of additives- its just that they use those more toxic compounds instead of ethanol.

I personally like the use of ethanol as an octane boosting additive up to 10-15%. But I don't think it makes sense as a gasoline substitute or "alternative fuel" in E-85 form. Butanol makes much more sense for that since its got a more comparable energy density to gasoline.

I have a bike and a car older than 2000. The car manual says NO gas with more than 10% to be used. The bike manual doesn't address it but that's because of the build date. It's an extra PIMA to worry about my power equipment being properly drained every year. The economics of it are a political hack lie, but that's another story.
 
Originally Posted By: steve20
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
When I have been able to put E0 in my vehicles, the improvement in fuel mileage was more than could be accounted for by BTU content. Which leads me to believe that what is sold as E10 often has more ethanol than advertised. YMMV.


Boy, is that ever true ^ ^ ^



That's likely, although there is another factor in play. Since ethanol is an oxygenate, it means that the fuel brings some of its own oxygen to the party. When the PCM tries to trim the mixture richer, what actually happens is that it adds more fuel and a little more oxygen, so it has to trim still *richer* to achieve what it wants to do. That alone *can* raise the E10 burn rate more than straight BTU differences would imply, but its something of a second-order effect and you'd expect the difference to be small.
 
It's not unusual for the fuel trims to go extremely lean during an 02 cycle. They tend to not go so extremely rich. Voltage of .05 to .850 is what I see all the time on E10 for a swing. .0v lean. 1.0 is rich
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Too bad many states under the spell of the green weenies don't ALLOW the sale of E0.


Yes. It's all about control. They don't like you to have a choice, so they take over and shut down your freedom of choice.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Less carbon and better environment.


So sorry, but that is publicity, not all factual, and very debatable.

so I agree with the previous posters about content...


But you agreed that the top of pistons were clean at this e85 topic

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2550069

What you mean fo "very debatable factual publicity" ? 10% should already help, no?
 
Originally Posted By: Turk
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Too bad many states under the spell of the green weenies don't ALLOW the sale of E0.


Yes. It's all about control. They don't like you to have a choice, so they take over and shut down your freedom of choice.



Actually it is about the Federal ethanol mandated usage. There are so many gallons that have to be used. One of the reasons they bring up E15 is the gasoline consumption is going down so increasing the ethanol percentage would bring the ethanol consumption back in line.

There is nothing today green about using ethanol. It's all big business. In the days of carburetor engines the extra oxygen helped. Today it makes no difference.
 
Actually it is about the Federal ethanol mandated usage. There are so many gallons that have to be used. One of the reasons they bring up E15 is the gasoline consumption is going down so increasing the ethanol percentage would bring the ethanol consumption back in line.

There is nothing today green about using ethanol. It's all big business. In the days of carburetor engines the extra oxygen helped. Today it makes no difference. [/quote]

Yes, "mandate". Mandate, control, force. Pick your word.
With them, it's pretty much all the same thing.
frown.gif
 
The newer vehicles, I don't think it really matters about using E0 or E10 when it comes to seals. There is not a vehicle being made that does not have adequate fuel system components to handle E10, and possibly even E15. One may not deliver as good of mpg as the other. I would find what the mpg you get on each fuel, then look at the pricing per gallon, and find the one that delivers the lowest cost per mile to use. And as prices fluctuate, you can switch hit between fuels and still get the best value at the pump. Forget the political arguments that are generally based more in diatribe and bias than factual data. The fuel is here and available, so just cut thru the clutter and determine what gets you the most value for your dollar at the pump and take advantage of the choices.

That is why I chose a flexfuel engine. I wanted to select from a smorgasbord of the fuels to give me the best value / lowest cost per mile as the prices fluctuate. I know what the mpg is for each of a wide range of gasoline and ethanol blends. And knowing that, I can make an informed choice at the pump on which fuel gives the best value at the time, based on current pricing.
 
Originally Posted By: mulehead
It would get better mpg and cost less food prices and feed costs would go down but it's all about farm state votes and Washington control


What planet are you living on? Corn is at prices that we had in the mid 90's. They are surprisingly low, what would be the equivalent of minimum wage if we were talking about incomes. You guys really have to get a life on this ethanol conspiracy thing. Would be much better if you actually knew a little bit of what you throw out. And "food" prices being lower? There is so much that goes into that, primarily processing and transportation costs. You want to bellyache about government, at least point the finger in the right direction.

Due to massive regulatory mandates (madness is a better word) that have been dumped on the transportation sector, and many more to come soon, there is growing capacity shortage and a somewhat serious shortage of personnel. The economic conditions knocked a lot of trucks out of the available capacity over the last few years. A laundry bag of regulations that have materialized has made it so much of that truck capacity will not return anytime soon. And it is one thing to buy a truck or a fleet, try to find drivers that can get thru the maze of regulatory issues and keep you from getting into a quagmire with the FMCSA. There just isn't a large pool of qualified drivers, and it is more difficult to pry them away from companies that already have them. And then there is the insurance carriers. You can't just grab a person off the street, hand them a CDL, and have them drive your truck. You have to drug test them, urinalysis now with also hair just around the corner. If they can get thru the physical, they still may require a sleep apnea test per the doctor doing the physical. And any kind of negative driving record already? Say good bye! And no one with anything more than a mild misdemeanor is going to make it thru screening to drive OTR.

This has led to one thing certain. If you want me to show up with a truck to haul your food, you are going to have to ante up. I will not haul it for what I did just a few months, and even weeks, ago. There are plenty of customers vying for my equipment to move their stuff. I am the busiest I have been in years. I have to turn down loads right and left.

That is why food prices are so high. And I haven't even discussed the myriad of regulatory hoops that food processors and other business' in the food chain have to go thru and those costs are passed right along.

You hate ethanol. I get that. But at least get your facts right. Corn is not the problem. Ethanol had no real impact on corn prices or availabilty of food. It is all the stuff between the crop field and the consumer that is sucking the money out of your wallet. And the primary reason is that your government claims to care for you.
 
Cows take a couple of years to grow. It will take time to rebuild the cow and hog fleets seeing as many were sold off.....

The ethanol for fuel is a great boondoggle. Good for Big Farming, ADM, ethanol plants and ethanol truck drivers.....
 
There's an important need for an effective octane rating booster given how many vehicles now spec at least 91 (and sometimes 93) octane (R+M)/2. You've got pretty much every luxury, near-luxury, and performance car requiring at least 91. I do understand this varies in different parts of the country, but here in California there are a lot of these types of cars on the road.

Certainly fuels can be made without oxygenates, but for the most part refiners aren't selling a whole lot of 80 octane unleaded except for stuff like camp stove fuel. So if the market shifted to zero ethanol, there's no way to do that without dumping a lot of fuel that can't be used for modern vehicles. They have to use some sort of octane booster to meet the demand for all types of fuel. MTBE is a no-go right now, and so is methanol.

And even with the low price of gasoline, the price of ethanol is still cheaper than gasoline.
 
Do you realize what the spot price of toluene is? If you want to use toluene without ethanol, then your prices are going to be pretty high in today's marketplace.

The majority of commodity unleaded is already designed for blending with ethanol to arrive at a final result. Look up the acronym RBOB.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Cows take a couple of years to grow. It will take time to rebuild the cow and hog fleets seeing as many were sold off.....

The ethanol for fuel is a great boondoggle. Good for Big Farming, ADM, ethanol plants and ethanol truck drivers.....


True, it does take an average 15 months from birth to butcher for beef. But Corn is not the primary food source. It is only one part of the feed makeup of bovine, swine, and poultry diet. And truth be told, one of the primary products used in livestock feed is dried distillers grain from making ethanol. It is a more highly digestible, higher protein product than using corn only. It has been shown to reduce the incidents of intestinal colitis in both beef and swine feeder stock. It is in big demand for poultry meat and egg production. Market cycles swing all the time. No doubt that ethanol has been a good thing for the parties you mention. So what. The invention of electricity has been a great thing for big corporations like GE. And that leads to the one of the biggest boondoggles going... wind farms.

And boondoggles? There is hardly anything that government does that is not a boondoggle. And you want to rain on the corn growers parade? You don't like ethanol, then don't buy it! Simple eh! Oh, yes... you do have a choice not to buy it. Go buy a diesel powered vehicle. Problem solved!
 
Because it grossly distorts the markets.

If you like your boondoggle you can keep your boondoggle?
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Because it grossly distorts the markets.

If you like your boondoggle you can keep your boondoggle?

Again, I noted that there's a strong incentive to use ethanol, as it's probably the cheapest octane booster currently available.
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Less carbon and better environment.


So sorry, but that is publicity, not all factual, and very debatable.

so I agree with the previous posters about content...


But you agreed that the top of pistons were clean at this e85 topic

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2550069

What you mean fo "very debatable factual publicity" ? 10% should already help, no?



How is a thread about engine wear even relative? Clean pistons are a wonderful thing, but have little to do with the ethanol debate being discussed here...
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Toluene is quite an effective octane booster and is also a major component of gasoline.

Do you realize what the spot price of toluene is? If you want to use toluene without ethanol, then your prices are going to be pretty high in today's marketplace.

The majority of commodity unleaded is already designed for blending with ethanol to arrive at a final result. Look up the acronym RBOB.


Around me all the gas is E10. The octane ratings are 87,89 and 92. So the base gas is 85, 87 and 91 octane. I believe gasoline is anywhere from 30-50% toluene now.
 
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