Automatic oil change system?

[F357]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have two in my fleet and basically I would love to do nothing more that dig a big hole and push them in (I would have to push because I know they will cost me more money to drive them into a hole). One alone burned 1/3 of my budget (injectors in both vehicles, turbo, oil cooler, clutch-fan etc) in the first 3 months of this year. OK, I did basically inherit a neglected fleet who was probably trying to run a fleet by the gas-and-go... look at how well my budget is doing because I am not fixing anything method. Anyway, do the regular PI with the 6.0 as they are not a robust "can ignore issues" engine.

While there are definitely a lot of lemons out there in the 6.0 world, I'm not afraid of them like other people are. If my Ford truck was a Dodge or a Chevy, it would have cost at least $15,000 more than I paid. Given the savings I had no big issue spending more than $5000 having the engine made reliable. My buddy spent more for the Cummins version of my truck, and has spent more than me on repairs. The 6.0 really is a bargain right now.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Considering how much that the PS 6.0 is a problem child, I would not try and avoid maintenance with this engine, especially if we are talking about the injectors.

It's not about avoiding maintenance, it's about constant maintenance. I would definitely need to send away oil samples to see how it is doing. I'm not sure if it would extend oil changes or replace them entirely.

My injectors cost $800 to rebuild, and my mechanic charges $300 to do the work, that would be the most I am risking here.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
But are the "stick-slip" and cold start romp problems we've heard about on the 6.0 PS over the years due to sticking on the oil side or the fuel side of the injector? My guess is on the oil side, which would probably be helped by having regular doses of fresh oil.

I believe it's mostly on the oil side, since several different oil additives can help - at least temporarily. I've also read you can take the injectors apart and clean/sand the spool valve on the oil side to fix some of the issues.

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Considering 2) - do you currently dispose of your used oil in your fuel tank ?

No, but I'm interested in the idea. 12+ quarts of dirty oil is always a PITA to deal with.

I was just looking at this ULSD additive lubricity study:
http://www.natbiogroup.com/docs/education/lubricity additive study results.pdf
They also tested WMO from a diesel engine, but the concentration was only 200:1. The results show almost no change in lubricity.

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Cheaper to rig up a pet cock to drain 2 quarts off every 1500 miles, and top it up...do that for 10k miles and see what the oil looks like...if you like it, consider the full set-up.

I like that idea, I'll probably give that a try. That's my big question, what will it actually do to the oil life. I think the Cummins version has a computer to determine just how much oil to burn. In my version, I would have to be the computer.

I still might consider a bypass filter also as this would extend the change interval for the factory cartridge oil filter.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: F357
While there are definitely a lot of lemons out there in the 6.0 world, I'm not afraid of them like other people are. If my Ford truck was a Dodge or a Chevy, it would have cost at least $15,000 more than I paid. Given the savings I had no big issue spending more than $5000 having the engine made reliable. My buddy spent more for the Cummins version of my truck, and has spent more than me on repairs. The 6.0 really is a bargain right now.


It is not that they are lemons... more that they are not accepting of non-traditional PM attempts... or delayed maintenance. Lemons are particular bad... the engines are not "flaws" of a good design, they are more of a problematic design made worse by neglect. It is not a Ford/Chevy/Dung argument (I am forced to buy cheaper via government contract, so it can be Dodge one day, Ford the next... and I would manage them). The 7.3 were a little more forgiving on a lot of things (similar issues but not as pronounce). Injector fouling is a common issue and because HEUI (if that applies to you BY). Basically, keeping you oil "fresh" can solve some of the injector issues.

Keep in mind that engines are "different" and that what worked in one diesel might not work for the 6.0. For you concept, the 6.0 is not designed to be the best candidate. Even if you burn a fair amount of oil, the EO will slowly degrade... and this is not an engine I would want to push OCI on top-off oil. You mentioned that you would worry about your injectors and considering the Ford HEUI issue, you should nix that method. For $1100 that you would spend on replacing the injectors, you could buy 110 gallons of Napa 15w40 ($9.99 per gallon right now). That would be 29 oil changes and some top-off (or in another way, 146,000 miles with a severe service routine or 220K miles with a normal routine).

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

First off - I'm not an expert on the 6.0 by any means. My opinion is based off my own experience with the 6.0, both under the hood and reading up online researching my problems, as well as those of other 6.0's I've worked on... and of course, reading up on problems and solutions others have had.

You're right about the injectors needing fresh oil to ensure a long life. The way I understand it, and I could be mistaken or off a bit, but the oil pressure (up to 4000 psi) works in the injector's spool valve to provide the pressure needed for the injection event, triggered by the truck's FICM, in conjunction with the PCM.

More info - http://www.btdaa.com/blog/ford60oilcooler/

The life of the injector is dependant on more than just oil quality - bad FICM voltage is more of a threat to injector life IMO - because it is so often ignored until injectors start going south.

More info - http://performancewise.net/ford/ford-6-0l-power-stroke-problems/

The problem you're going to run into is dumping the oil, despite filtering it, back into the fuel tank. The 6.0 Motorcraft fuel filters are good for 15k miles, tops. They also cost $50 for the pair. The fuel conditioning module is already pretty sensitive to begin with. Even with frequent draining, it's still prone to wax/slime/gunk buildup that restricts fuel flow. Add in dirty oil, with it's tendency for carbon/soot buildup, and you might be giving yourself more headache than it's worth.

But, I could also be completely wrong and you could be onto something. Only one way to find out.

 

[F357]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan

The problem you're going to run into is dumping the oil, despite filtering it, back into the fuel tank. The 6.0 Motorcraft fuel filters are good for 15k miles, tops. They also cost $50 for the pair. The fuel conditioning module is already pretty sensitive to begin with. Even with frequent draining, it's still prone to wax/slime/gunk buildup that restricts fuel flow. Add in dirty oil, with it's tendency for carbon/soot buildup, and you might be giving yourself more headache than it's worth.


I agree with you there. I do plan on completely replacing the fuel system with an upgraded version soon. The stock system is picky and I've heard there are MPG gains to be had with something better. I also want to replace the factory fuel filters with a spin on version - I really hate the cartridge filters, and the first one sucks to change.

I understand burning WMO is always a controversial subject, but I also know the old 7.3L engine is one of the better choices if you want to burn straight WMO. My 6.0 is more finicky than the 7.3L but the fuel system is very similar. I have not been able to find any actual experiences of people burning WMO in the 6.0, good or bad.

 

[Clevy]

Deleted

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Considering 2) - do you currently dispose of your used oil in your fuel tank ?

I think that's the crux of the issue here. The Cummins system was factory approved for a specific set of engines at a specific time, and it may not be wise to try to transfer that solution to another engine family of a [technically] different era, straight out of the box, as it were.

I understand what the goal is here, but I highly doubt it could be realized in a financially feasible way. From my reading back when this Cummins system was current, many of the users were heavily into bypass filtration and the like, which obviously would help the cleanliness of oil burned with the fuel. This becomes another cost, and if the goal of this is to save money and hassle on oil changes at the outset, the costs will run away in short order.

 

[F357]

Originally Posted By: Garak
The Cummins system was factory approved for a specific set of engines at a specific time, and it may not be wise to try to transfer that solution to another engine family of a [technically] different era, straight out of the box, as it were.


Is there a specific reason why? The only thing I could really see being a problem would be the cat and EGR system, which are long gone from my truck. My hydraulic injectors are different than Cummins injectors, but are the tolerances in the nozzle any different?

One thing we must be able to agree on is that Cummins engineers decided a small amount of waste oil was not harmful to their injectors, right? Is there anything about newer injectors that would make them more of a problem with this?

 

[CDX825]

I think a good bypass oil filter and some top shelf diesel rated 10W30 would be a better investment.


I remember reading in the early years of the 6.0 fuel quality was one of the issues that plagued them. Being that they came about before ULSD fuel. Seem to recall excessive coking of the VGT and EGR system from poor fuel quality.

I the 6.0 is great engine but I don't think I would try to run it on any type of waste fuel. I don't think I would attempt it on any of the new diesels for that matter. Way to much at stake with fuel system.

 

[Ken2]

Quote:
I do a lot of short trips and idling.
Can you idle less? Less idling helps everything. I don't know why diesel owners like to idle their engines for no good reason...just like the rumble, I guess...and if you aren't working the engine while it idles, shut it off. (I've trained at two diesel manufacturers; this isn't guesswork.)

Another recommendation here for a good bypass oil filter. Your type of service is what they're good at and when they pay off. Get an oil analysis maybe every 3,000 miles so you know what's happening in the engine.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: F357
Is there a specific reason why? The only thing I could really see being a problem would be the cat and EGR system, which are long gone from my truck. My hydraulic injectors are different than Cummins injectors, but are the tolerances in the nozzle any different?

For that answer, we'll have to hope someone with the requisite background chimes in. I'm tempted to think there should be "no reason" why not. But, over the years, I haven't seen any other engine manufacturers stand behind such a system. Maybe there are other systems they've approved and I just haven't heard of them, or other engine manufacturers looked into it and didn't proceed for some reason.

There are some serious experts here, and I hope they're reading the thread; heck, I know they're reading the thread, since some have commented!

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

Originally Posted By: F357
Originally Posted By: Garak
The Cummins system was factory approved for a specific set of engines at a specific time, and it may not be wise to try to transfer that solution to another engine family of a [technically] different era, straight out of the box, as it were.


Is there a specific reason why? The only thing I could really see being a problem would be the cat and EGR system, which are long gone from my truck. My hydraulic injectors are different than Cummins injectors, but are the tolerances in the nozzle any different?

One thing we must be able to agree on is that Cummins engineers decided a small amount of waste oil was not harmful to their injectors, right? Is there anything about newer injectors that would make them more of a problem with this?


Your 6.0 injectors aren't similar to Cummins injectors in any way, other than the fact that both are responsible for getting fuel into the cylinders. The method of getting that fuel to the injector, and how the injector works, are entirely different for each engine.

I wish we could be discussing this in person with a disassembled core 6.0 injector, and it'd be easy to see why you don't want dirty, or oil contaminated fuel going through it. My computer is running slow, so I can't find the video, but on youtube there is a video of a technician tearing down a 6.0 injector.

 

[F357]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan
Your 6.0 injectors aren't similar to Cummins injectors in any way, other than the fact that both are responsible for getting fuel into the cylinders. The method of getting that fuel to the injector, and how the injector works, are entirely different for each engine.

Yes, they work differently, but they do the same job. They both shove high pressure fuel through microscopic holes. It is the high pressure and the microscopic holes that cause the issues, and they both have this in common.

The injectors on a 7.3L powerstroke are very similar and there is LOTS of evidence that shows they tolerate WMO just fine. The popular mix is stale gasoline and waste motor oil.

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan

I wish we could be discussing this in person with a disassembled core 6.0 injector, and it'd be easy to see why you don't want dirty, or oil contaminated fuel going through it.

I guess the better question is why would oil out of my own engine be considered "contaminated"? That same oil was just running the hydraulic side of the injector only minutes earlier.

If we were talking about random used oil from strangers I would agree completely. It could have anything in it, and I wouldn't put it in my engine. But if the oil came straight out of my engine, I know it does not contain water, coolant, gasoline, carb cleaner, whatever. If I filter it to 1 micron then I know nothing bigger will hit the injector. What is contaminated?

It is also important to note that the goal here is to keep the oil relatively clean indefinitely. That means the waste oil I'm burning isn't that dirty to begin with. It's not the same as used up oil that is black after 10,000 miles of service.

I've said this several times but I don't think anybody can hear me. Even with a bypass filter and fancy synthetic oil, it is not wise to extend the OCI on a 6.0. It is very hard on the oil. It is not just a filter issue. The high pressure oil system shears the oil bad.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: F357
I've said this several times but I don't think anybody can hear me. Even with a bypass filter and fancy synthetic oil, it is not wise to extend the OCI on a 6.0. It is very hard on the oil. It is not just a filter issue. The high pressure oil system shears the oil bad.



1) for a "new" guy you sure seem to know a lot about what you ask questions about; have you lurked before joining or are you just that stubborn?
2) you seem to make assertions with no factual basis; please prove beyond anecdotal observations - show credible data
3) HEUI does shear oil; that's true. We'll agree here. However ...
4) sheared oil in the PSD shows absolutely no degradation of performance in terms of engine wear or injectors; again, please provide real tangible data (that does not include marketing hype and mythology)
5) there are folks here at this site who've successfully run 10w-30 dino oil for 7.5k miles, got great results, had no HEUI issues, over 200k miles
6) the 6.0L PSD no more needs premium syn lubes and BP filters than does any other engine; I've got reams of data on the PSD. I think we're in agreement here.
7) the greatest lube issue facing the 6.0 is the plugged oil cooler, and no manner of lube or OCI is going to change what happens on the opposite side in the coolant circuit path
8) HEUI issues are often mis-diagnosed; the FICM can develop low-voltage issues that manifest into lazy and noisy injection events
9) HEUI will generally only shear heavier grade lubes; if you feed it a 40 grade it will shear. If you feed it a 30 grade, it won't. It prefers a 30 grade lube, and it will make a 40 into a 30 for you. Lots of UOA data to show this as fact.
10) other issues in the HEUI system (aside from your impled injector issues) include the o-rings that seal the rails, the IPR, the ICP, and such. No oil choice is going to affect these issues.


I would agree that extended OCIs may not be a good idea. I say this because I don't have enough data to show any conclusive decision point one way or another. The lack of enough data makes for an unknown; do not presume it to imply a known negative. I cannot, in good faith, advise folks when I don't have enough data.


Like I said previously, if you're sold on your own idea for this oil replacement theory, then put up or shut up. Try it. Do it. Leave the rhetoric behind and start some well-controlled trials. Rather than blabber on about it, why not actually step into the realm of the unknown and take a risk. You may succeed; you may fail. Either way, you can report back and let us know how well your theory translates into reality.


To quote the infamous Verizon commercial:
Can you hear me now?

 

[F357]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

1) for a "new" guy you sure seem to know a lot about what you ask questions about; have you lurked before joining or are you just that stubborn?

Geez, I guess if you are not a member of bobistheoilguy then you must not be able to know anything about oil.

Just because I ask a question does not mean I am stupid. When somebody says something won't work, there is nothing wrong with asking them for an explanation. So far I haven't heard one.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

2) you seem to make assertions with no factual basis; please prove beyond anecdotal observations - show credible data

There is plenty of evidence to show that at 5-7000 miles the oil in a 6.0 Powerstroke is used up. That's how Ford arrived at this OCI. I have not seen a UOA at 7,000 miles that said "yes, go ahead a few thousand more".

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: F357
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

1) for a "new" guy you sure seem to know a lot about what you ask questions about; have you lurked before joining or are you just that stubborn?

Geez, I guess if you are not a member of bobistheoilguy then you must not be able to know anything about oil.

Just because I ask a question does not mean I am stupid. When somebody says something won't work, there is nothing wrong with asking them for an explanation. So far I haven't heard one.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

2) you seem to make assertions with no factual basis; please prove beyond anecdotal observations - show credible data

There is plenty of evidence to show that at 5-7000 miles the oil in a 6.0 Powerstroke is used up. That's how Ford arrived at this OCI. I have not seen a UOA at 7,000 miles that said "yes, go ahead a few thousand more".




I apologize if I offended you; not my intent. I am trying to understand, though, why it is you come here asking questions you already seem to have answers for. Do you just need someone to agree with you so that you'll feel better about your stated position?

There is plenty of evidence that OEM OCIs are generally very conservative. There are always a few "oops" moments for individual scenarios where known neglect or known sludger engines will present a very poor outlook and not warrant such extended considerations. To that degree, I always exclude the small extremes of this type conversation. Extended OCIs are not a good idea on a Saturn SL2, some Toyotas, etc. But generally, the data shows that OEM OCIs are grossly understated as a manner of protecting their warranty concerns, not out wallets.

Plenty of data exists in my "normalcy" study to show how one can safely extend OCIs; please read the article when you get a moment. Further, I see no evidece you've submitted with real credible data sourcing to back up your claim. You state "There is plenty of evidence ..."; please show it. If you've not seen a 7k mile UOA from a 6.0PSD that allows for longer runs, then you've never looked at one of rr1's 10w-30 dino UOA posts. I've also seen excellent UOA data indicating fantastic results at 7.5k miles from my neighbor's 6.0L also; extensions were clearly obtainable.

Just because an OEM recommends an OCI duration, does not mean extension isn't warranted. One has to first understand what is "normal" for that engine family series, and then determine reasonable condemnation limits for many criteria, and then set useful, safe limits. Arbitrarily using a tripometer is not the kind of "proof" I'm referring to.

Again - apology for seeming rude if that's how you took it.

Your thread seems to tout the merit of a auto-oil system. If you believe there is good cause, then PROVE IT. Go out and DO IT and then report back here about what worked and what didn't.

There is already PLENTY of unfounded mythology and rhetoric that abounds here. We don't need more.

If you have seen "plenty of evidence" that oil is finished at 7k miles in a 6.0L PSD, please show specific examples as well as discuss in detail what lead to the decision of condemnation.

 

[F357]

I think you are still missing the point. I don't care how long you try and extend the OCI out, you still have to change it. 10,000 would be a lot of miles. 15,000 would be a LOT of miles. Even if you did 20,000 miles, my original question still stands.

I have nothing to prove to you or anybody else. I was mainly asking if anybody had any data on perpetual oil changes and how it effected oil life. I'm surprised on a website such as this only one person has ever tried. As somebody else suggested I'll probably try it manually for a little while, but this will take several months to get any data.

Additionally, if anybody had any good reasons why this would or wouldn't work for my particular engine I would love to hear about it, but "don't do it 'cause the 6.0 is picky" is not a good enough answer. I don't do hearsay.

 

[roadrunner1]

6.0 injectors are expensive.
That within itself should be reason enough, but if you want to try it go for it.

Just because another engine platform used this technology doesn't mean it will work long term for your engine. Personally I don't think you can get your used oil clean enough to run through the HEUI system.

DNewton mentioned my own experience with UOA data & my 2 6.0's. The data suggested I could have extended my OCI further than the 7,500 mi. I was using, but with all of the horror stories I had heard about with failing injectors I felt it was best to stay within the factory OCI. In over 350,000 mi. between the two trucks I never had an injector issue.

If you decide to attempt this please report back, but personally I advise against adding any oil to the fuel system.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: F357
I think you are still missing the point. I don't care how long you try and extend the OCI out, you still have to change it. 10,000 would be a lot of miles. 15,000 would be a LOT of miles. Even if you did 20,000 miles, my original question still stands.

I have nothing to prove to you or anybody else. I was mainly asking if anybody had any data on perpetual oil changes and how it effected oil life. I'm surprised on a website such as this only one person has ever tried. As somebody else suggested I'll probably try it manually for a little while, but this will take several months to get any data.

Additionally, if anybody had any good reasons why this would or wouldn't work for my particular engine I would love to hear about it, but "don't do it 'cause the 6.0 is picky" is not a good enough answer. I don't do hearsay.



Nope - not missing the point at all ...

Further, I never said you don't have to change oil. In fact, I clearly indicated that the smart way to change oil is to set condemnation points. I prefer to use statistical analysis based upon wear data, oil criteria, etc and not mileage. Some folks prefer arbitrary use of the tripometer.

The reason you're not getting much info about OCI extension via perpetual lube addition is because theory trumps reality here for the most part. There is a whole lot of bench racing that goes on here, but when it comes to people putting their money where their mouth is, it's eerily quite for the most part.

You're correct; you don't have to prove anything to any of us.

I encourage you to experiment to any level you feel comfortable with. Report back with your findings, please.


If I understand your mantra, you essentially are wanting to micro-incrementally manage the OCIs; you are going to extract and add very small amounts over each fuel tank fill.

Generally, the purpose of your quest seems frivolous to me. You are, in fact, doing OCIs; a whole lot of them. one thimble full at a time. And in addition, you're introducing contamination into the fuel-side of the injectors that it was not meant to accept. You did say you'll super-filter it with a 1um filter, but I was not clear as to how. You'd need a pump to push that used waste oil from the crankcase, to the filter and then into the tank. What a PITB.

So, just what is the purpose of this system you query us about? It cannot be to reduce engine wear; huge amounts of data shows that longer OCIs actually REDUCE WEAR RATES. So what is the goal of your micro-incrementally managed extended OCIs? Are you trying to have ever cleaner oil for the injectors? I don't see a DIRECT causation of managed lube and injector failure anyway. HEUI systems are notoriously mis-diagnosed in terms of poor performance.

Originally Posted By: F357
This way I could possibly go thousands of miles between oil changes, yet still have fresh oil. I Would have to send away oil samples at first to see how long it would last.

How are you quantifying "thousands of miles between oil changes?" You already go 5k miles; how much more in terms of "thousands" over your stated five thousand is "more", anyway? And then you're going to UOA on top of that? Not that I don't like UOAs; I do. But only when they have a reasonable, pragmatic purpose.



So, in synopsis, you are asking about:
micro-incremental OCIs that would lead to one longer OCI, that is probably within the concept of "normal" statistical data results, and adding in the plumbing of getting the "tap" from the engine, to a filter (which will require installation materials and maintenance costs) to clean the waste oil as fuel before burning it, and then finally you will do a full traditional OCI somewhere down the road and add in the UOA cost on top of that ...

Originally Posted By: F357
Think I'm crazy?

In a word; Yes. You've got a solution in search of a problem, sir or ma'am.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: F357
I was mainly asking if anybody had any data on perpetual oil changes and how it effected oil life.

Basically, if you're asking if such a system would enable you to forgo oil changes altogether, I don't think any of that could answer it with a degree of certainly. I'd lean on the answer being no, though. If I recall correctly, when that Cummins system was current, they still required an actual oil change at some mileage point, albeit greatly extended.

 

[F357]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
6.0 injectors are expensive.

ALL diesel injectors are expensive. 6.0 injectors are not inherently more expensive than other engines, and they lack a very expensive injector pump. Like I said above, my injectors cost $100 each to rebuild and $300 labor to change. If I only did one injector or one bank it would be much less than $1100. Are Cummins injectors any cheaper than that? OK, they have two less, but they also have an IP...

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1

Personally I don't think you can get your used oil clean enough to run through the HEUI system.

It is well known that the HEUI system on the 7.3L diesel works FANTASTIC with waste motor oil in concentrations up to 100%. Can you cite any specific reason why 6.0 injectors are any different? If I was just using that same oil in my crankcase to power the injector then why is it too contaminated for the other side? Can anybody even begin to answer that question?