Air weapons

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
2,912
Location
MI, USA
Does anyone know what the legal limit is for an air weapon before it is classed as a firearm? I have a 1970s BSA Scorpion pistol which just scraped in under the UK limit of 600fps but I don't know how legal it is now that it's in the USA.
 
Originally Posted By: joegreen
Thier are air gun laws, well ill be darned.


Some of the modern air guns are extremely powerful and accurate. These are not little johnny's red Rider
shocked.gif
 
According to Wiki:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives states that:

The term "firearm" is defined in the Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(3), to include "(A) any weapon (including a starter gun), which will, or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon...." Based on Section 921(a)(3), air guns, because they use compressed air and not an explosive to expel a projectile, do not constitute firearms under Federal law — unless they are manufactured with the frames or receivers of an actual firearm. Accordingly, the domestic sale and possession of air guns is normally unregulated under the Federal firearms laws enforced by ATF.[29]

Although the federal government does not normally regulate air guns, some state and local governments do; the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence has complied a list of states and selected municipalities that regulate air guns, finding that 23 states and the District of Columbia regulate air guns to some degree.[30] Two states (New Jersey and Rhode Island) define all non-powder guns as firearms; two states (Illinois and Michigan) define certain high-power and/or large caliber non-powder guns as firearms; three states (Connecticut, Delaware and North Dakota) define non-powder guns as dangerous weapons (but not firearms).[30] The remaining states which regulate air guns impose age restrictions on possession, use, or transfer of non-powder guns, and/or explicitly regulate possession of non-powder guns on school grounds.[30]

New York City has a restrictive municipal ordinance regulating air guns.[30] Air guns were previously banned in San Francisco, but a state preemption statute struck down the ban, and the San Francisco District Attorney declared them legal as long as in compliance with state law.[31]

New York state law prohibits anyone under the age of 16 from possessing an air gun.[32]
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
In Canada it is 495fps. I found this:

http://pelletgunzone.com/air-gun-laws/


So Michigan says "high power". How do you figure out what that means?

I guess that the Scorpion is definitely high power so the question is what do I do now? Any suggestions?
 
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
In Canada it is 495fps. I found this:

http://pelletgunzone.com/air-gun-laws/


So Michigan says "high power". How do you figure out what that means?

I guess that the Scorpion is definitely high power so the question is what do I do now? Any suggestions?


I'd try to find the actual statute and not rely on some website's interpretation of the law. Then you'll have a better idea of what's up.

A quick search showed that there is air gun reclassification legislation that was recently vetod and might be edited and re-sent to the Governor soon. The NRA and Michigan Airgun alliance both look like good sources of info.

https://www.facebook.com/miairgun
 
I went to the police, with full details, this morning and they said that registration is not required.
 
While there are plenty of claims that air powered rifles can somehow compete with the power of a real firearm, that's simply not true. Yes, you can achieve acceptable Lb/Ft numbers, but that does tell the entire picture. Projectile diameter, mass and velocity are quite different than a conventional firearm. And, therefore, so is real world performance.

Air guns can operate at chamber pressures just over 2000 PSI. Typical quality firearms operate at up to 55,000 PSI and some 223 ammo has been measured at 63,500 PSI.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
While there are plenty of claims that air powered rifles can somehow compete with the power of a real firearm, that's simply not true. Yes, you can achieve acceptable Lb/Ft numbers, but that does tell the entire picture. Projectile diameter, mass and velocity are quite different than a conventional firearm. And, therefore, so is real world performance.

Air guns can operate at chamber pressures just over 2000 PSI. Typical quality firearms operate at up to 55,000 PSI and some 223 ammo has been measured at 63,500 PSI.


Some of the .22 cal air rifles can put the projectile at about 1000 ft/sec, so they have some pretty good energy on those projectiles ... about 1/2 of a .22 firearm due the .22 pellets only being about 1/2 the weight of a typical .22 bullet. Still, I bet if you shot somebody at close range in the head it could cause death pretty easily.
 
I think you are right, these thing are definitely far from being toys and could certainly cause serious injury if not kill given the right circumstances.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Cujet
While there are plenty of claims that air powered rifles can somehow compete with the power of a real firearm, that's simply not true. Yes, you can achieve acceptable Lb/Ft numbers, but that does tell the entire picture. Projectile diameter, mass and velocity are quite different than a conventional firearm. And, therefore, so is real world performance.

Air guns can operate at chamber pressures just over 2000 PSI. Typical quality firearms operate at up to 55,000 PSI and some 223 ammo has been measured at 63,500 PSI.


Some of the .22 cal air rifles can put the projectile at about 1000 ft/sec, so they have some pretty good energy on those projectiles ... about 1/2 of a .22 firearm due the .22 pellets only being about 1/2 the weight of a typical .22 bullet. Still, I bet if you shot somebody at close range in the head it could cause death pretty easily.


No question they can be effective. There are large bore airguns that can be used for hunting. So, clearly they can kill.

My point was simply that they don't really compare to firearms. The 22 caliber example is a good one. As the 22 cartridge is limited to about 20,000 PSI chamber pressure due to design. The 22 magnum, about 25,000 PSI.

The airgun in 22, with a light weight projectile, can achieve excellent speed, for really good accuracy. But it's energy numbers are very low. A typical basic 22 firearm round is about 140 lb/ft energy at the muzzle. Stingers and other "high powered" 22's are near 200 Lb/ft. The best 22 airguns are in the mid to low 20's Lb/ft. Or, put another way, 10 to 20% as powerful. And, that's comparing to the lower pressure 22 round.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Cujet


The airgun in 22, with a light weight projectile, can achieve excellent speed, for really good accuracy. But it's energy numbers are very low. A typical basic 22 firearm round is about 140 lb/ft energy at the muzzle. Stingers and other "high powered" 22's are near 200 Lb/ft. The best 22 airguns are in the mid to low 20's Lb/ft. Or, put another way, 10 to 20% as powerful. And, that's comparing to the lower pressure 22 round.


While that may be true of spring powered air rifles, pre-charged pneumatics in 25 and 30 are on the market around 80-100 lbs/ft.

There's a guy called Quackenbush in the US who makes .357, .45 & .50 air rifles, into the several hundreds lbs/ft.
 
Originally Posted By: Olas

While that may be true of spring powered air rifles, pre-charged pneumatics in 25 and 30 are on the market around 80-100 lbs/ft.

There's a guy called Quackenbush in the US who makes .357, .45 & .50 air rifles, into the several hundreds lbs/ft.


I did mention that larger caliber airguns do have sufficient power to hunt with. I'll also admit that I want one.

However, when we get up to 30 caliber, airguns, the facts become even more one sided. My 30 caliber LR308 uses only one round. FGMM, 168g Boat tail hollow point. It's muzzle energy is 2700 Lb/Ft and velocity 2600 FPS.

Each has a place. But they really don't compare. The 30 caliber 308 is accurate out to 800 yards, effective out to 1000 yards.

It seems the big bore air rifles can achieve pistol like performance.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The airgun in 22, with a light weight projectile, can achieve excellent speed, for really good accuracy. But it's energy numbers are very low. A typical basic 22 firearm round is about 140 lb/ft energy at the muzzle. Stingers and other "high powered" 22's are near 200 Lb/ft. The best 22 airguns are in the mid to low 20's Lb/ft.


I have a .22 caliber Air Arms S510 that I've chronographed at over 30 Ft/lbs. Apparently, mine is better than the best.

Little known fact:

The Lewis and Clark Expedition of over 200 years ago brought one repeating rifle with them. It was a pneumatic rifle charged by a hand pump. The air reservoir was in the hollow stock and could shoot over 40 rounds without having to recharge. Although the expedition had a full complement of powder burners, the repeating air rifle is the one they used to demonstrate the awesome fire power controlled by the pale skinned explorers. They would demonstrate the accuracy, power and shooting speed of this weapon by shooting the large lead musket balls deep into the trunk of a tree in quick succession. The natives, whose best strategy against the guns of the day was to charge when everyone was reloading their muskets could see how futile that strategy would be as they inspected the accuracy and depth of penetration in the tree. Lewis and Clark never disclosed that they only had one of these pneumatic repeaters and the natives assumed all their long guns had this capability. Word of this awesome firepower spread from tribe to tribe faster than the expedition could travel. Thus, Lewis and Clark were able to safely complete their survey of the West without interference from the natives.

Many historians believe the USA would look very different today had the expedition not returned. Perhaps the West would be under Spanish and Russian flags with the USA limited to east of the Rocky Mountain Divide. Thus, this handmade, very expensive, imported pneumatic repeater could be considered to be the most important gun in America.

Currently, the most powerful pneumatic rifle I'm aware of (that is mass produced) is a .50 cal. Sam Yang Dragon Claw with 230 Ft/lbs. muzzle energy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top