Independent tests of European oils

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
No oil is tested for lack of pressure in a corner.

Without oil flow a journal bearing cannot make its own pressure to support the bearing. There is no way to 'un-compromise' for oil surge.


I test it in my car.

Redline, Royal Purple and Amsoil do real world race testing.



Yeah - Castrol/Shell or Mobil have nothing to do with motorsport.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Yeah - Castrol/Shell or Mobil have nothing to do with motorsport.



But their research and testing capabilities simply pale in comparison to the anecdotal experience of one individual who drives his car on a road course...

 

[SubLGT]

This thread confirms the old saying:

"Nobody can win a debate with an irrational person".

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
This thread confirms the old saying:

"Nobody can win a debate with an irrational person".


Or this .

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
No oil is tested for lack of pressure in a corner.

Without oil flow a journal bearing cannot make its own pressure to support the bearing. There is no way to 'un-compromise' for oil surge.


I test it in my car.

Redline, Royal Purple and Amsoil do real world race testing.



Yeah - Castrol/Shell or Mobil have nothing to do with motorsport.





LOL!!!

 

[turtlevette]

So what you people are saying is oil is oil. As long as it has the approval don't even bother trying to distinguish which is the best among that approved group.

So you can all feel better about buying jugs of M1 at Walmart for 22 bucks and not Redline for $100?

No room for any independent thinking around here. You're either in the cult or out.

Leave me out. Thank you.

 

[MCompact]

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
So what you people are saying is oil is oil. As long as it has the approval don't even bother trying to distinguish which is the best among that approved group.

You could try, but once you get to a certain level of performance, then beyond that you'd just be splitting hairs. If that is what you truly enjoy doing, knock yourself out. Or you could just toss a coin and then find something else to worry about.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

You could try, but once you get to a certain level of performance, then beyond that you'd just be splitting hairs. If that is what you truly enjoy doing, knock yourself out.


Exactly. Here is what Blackstone had to say about an 8,200 mile run of M1 0W-40 in my 125k mile Club Sport:

Your BMW's engine appears to be doing quite well at 125,244 miles. Our universal averages show normal wear for the M42 4-cylinder after 3,800 miles of oil use. You ran this 0W/40 oil well past that mark, so it was nice to see all metals reading close to or below average. They were also in balance to one another and that shows normally wearing
parts and no mechanical problems brewing. The oil's TBN was 5.7, meaning there was lots of active additive left.

And Blackstone's comments on a 7,600 mile run of M1 EP 5W-30 in my 146k mile MS3:

We'd tell you this is another great sample from your MS3 (which it is), but that's old news for this engine. This is the 20th report for this engine, so you've got some very solid unit/location averages established for this motor, and this report is only adding to the good numbers displayed in that column. Basically, we're really just trying to tell you how good this report is in a way that you might not have heard before. Keep up the good work, this engine is in great shape as far as we're concerned. The TBN of 4.6 is plenty strong

Now, both cars are track rats and both have been fed an exclusive diet of Mobil 1 motor oils since they were new- I'm the original owner in each case. What could possibly be gained by lapsing into some sort of OCD hysteria in an effort to find an oil that might possibly be "better?"

 

[riggaz]

What you were saying is more expensive oil behaves differently in the sump when going round a corner than cheaper oil, which is completely incorrect.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Running an oil in a race car as a test method is a questionable technique? It's one of the best tests you can have. Real world testing under the most severe service.

Yes, but for a very limited application. As I already pointed out, I suspect my G37 has very little use for whatever lubricant an F1 engine uses. And who is ganging up on you?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Ponder on that a minute. You know how silly that sounds.

I was hinting at the dry sump system there, or, at a minimum, a baffled pan. So, suggesting what is commonly used in racing, or even in some performance mods, makes me sound silly? And no one is disputing the value of Synerlec or good old ZDDP, either. That wasn't the point here. If one's only concern is in having extremely high amounts of AW compounds, there are plenty of oils available to do that, including from the major manufacturers, in their racing lines. I'm not just criticizing boutique oils (which I've also used). I do not have a use for any race oil right now, including M1's race oil. It's not a "better" oil for any of my applications at the moment.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I suspect my G37 has very little use for whatever lubricant an F1 engine uses.

I was hinting at the dry sump system there, or, at a minimum, a baffled pan. So, suggesting what is commonly used in racing, or even in some performance mods, makes me sound silly?


YES, I can tell you have no track experience whatsoever and a very limited understanding of engines and automobiles in general. A dry sump system is going to cost 10 grand. A baffled pan helps some but most high performance cars already have a pretty good oil pan. Anything you change can knock you out of a stock class. Major mods like a dry sump or modified oil pan will put you in a prepared class where you're competing against real race cars.

People are going to hack up a brand new car to put these mods in? Really?

It is an excellent strategy to switch to a racing oil for track events. Oil is free.

But if I'm just commuting to work in a Lexus I won't understand or care about any of this and just use what's on sale at Walmart.

 

[OVERKILL]

I think it depends on the kind of track driving one is doing. If one is doing it competitively, like you are alluding to, where there are rules in place, sure, looking for that extra little bit that might help you through while retaining stock rule compliance, I can see somebody looking at the "last line of defence" additives in their oil.

On the other hand, somebody who just does HPDE's or goes to "Track Days" with their local BMW/Audi/Mustang/F-body/Corvette club is still tracking their car, but doesn't have to worry about those same issues to the same extent. It is more casual and modifications aren't as much of an issue if needed.

And yes, some cars have far better oiling systems than others. A true dry sump setup is insanely expensive, as noted. And then there's the whole issue of whether you want to get into it or not. We had a kicked Canton with matching pick-up on an SBF that the pick-up was too small and was causing cavitation at high RPM. Ended up lunching the motor. This was the PO's installed piece, who thought he was doing good by the car, because he was tracking it and wanted added sump capacity and better baffling than the stock pan offered.

BMW did what they call a "semi dry sump" on my M5, which is a goofy looking pan with additional side pick-ups that are on electronic solenoids so that oil gets pumped from the sides of the pan through these ports when the car experiences high G-loads in corners. There's debate on the effectiveness of the system but I believe properly maintained it works quite well. Sabine ran the car as the ring Taxi for years and it was reliable in that form/environment. This elaborate setup was BMW's attempt at avoiding the additional expense of a true dry sump which would ultimately have been that much better. Of course if one of the solenoids dies or gets lazy, you risk starvation

I think a lot of it depends on what your track car is though. I'm sure there are people tracking a Lexus out there too

There are guys that track Crown Vic's

 

[riggaz]

We can all see you have very little understanding of lubricants

But a very good understanding of saving face.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
YES, I can tell you have no track experience whatsoever and a very limited understanding of engines and automobiles in general. A dry sump system is going to cost 10 grand.

Yes, and dry sumps are commonly used in racing. And yes, people hack up brand new cars for mods. I've seen all kinds of mods done on new vehicles. If a person wishes to stay within the rules of a certain class, of course, they're limited as to what they can do. I wouldn't be looking for a boutique lubricant to magically protect against cavitation or starvation. Others are free to modify as much as their wallet will allow, and you are well aware that some people spend absolutely insane amounts of money on vehicle modifications, be it a brand new Lexus or a decade old Civic. And how you judge my experience is absolutely irrelevant and we've been down that road before.

None of this has anything to do with your point about race testing lubricants, all the while concerning yourself with the lowest tiers of racing and ignoring the fact that Shell, BP, Mobil, Total, Motul, Fuchs, Petronas, and so forth are all involved in the top tiers of racing. The R&D these companies get out of their involvement in F1, Blancpain, WEC, and so forth, given their analytical facilities, is a lot more valuable than what is obtainable from weekend warriors.

As has already been pointed out to you, in some of these series, off the shelf lubricants from Fuchs and XOM are used, and they aren't dedicated racing lubes. Again, different types of racing have very different engines and very different operating conditions.

 

[turtlevette]

It's disappointing since this could have been a good discussion with more open minds.

executive summary

OP Look at this cool study.
reply Its garbage because the test doesn't exactly replicate an engine
reply Don't you know bigger oil suppliers are always better anyway
me Yea but its the best convenient test we have right now for consumers to do their own testing
reply If you like that test use pert plus in your engine
reply you are ignorant
reply we'll teach you for thinking differently
me Car guys are concerned with wear under extreme conditions
reply Just buy a better car. Please do not concern yourself with picking the best oil

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It's disappointing since this could have been a good discussion with more open minds.

executive summary

OP Look at this cool study.
reply Its garbage because the test doesn't exactly replicate an engine
reply Don't you know bigger oil suppliers are always better anyway
me Yea but its the best convenient test we have right now for consumers to do their own testing
reply If you like that test use pert plus in your engine
reply you are ignorant
reply we'll teach you for thinking differently
me Car guys are concerned with wear under extreme conditions
reply Just buy a better car. Please do not concern yourself with picking the best oil



Why do you stick around. You learn nothing,you've got nothing to teach. You post irrelevant test methods and expect serious conversation from them.
There's nothing for you here. Perhaps you'll find friends on those ricer sites,or maybe that other oil site.
But I guess we just don't appreciate your "gifts".
Perhaps it's time to share them with others who will accept your nonsense.
Again. Maybe ricers.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It's disappointing since this could have been a good discussion with more open minds.

executive summary

OP Look at this cool study.
reply Its garbage because the test doesn't exactly replicate an engine
reply Don't you know bigger oil suppliers are always better anyway
me Yea but its the best convenient test we have right now for consumers to do their own testing
reply If you like that test use pert plus in your engine
reply you are ignorant
reply we'll teach you for thinking differently
me Car guys are concerned with wear under extreme conditions
reply Just buy a better car. Please do not concern yourself with picking the best oil


turtlevette, that's not exactly how it went down.

Amsoil, 504Rat, and a number of others use a test procedure that's designed for gears, greases, and hydraulic oils to say that their lube is best...that's the garbage science.

Industry has found that the 4 ball wear test isn't even very good at correlating to what it's supposed to be representative of, as evidenced by the statements (wider than this link) th...ive activation) But additive activation between steel surfaces means that you've lost the race regarding lubrication.

Regarding what happens when oil pressure drops ?

As I stated, rings and pistons have circulation regimes of tens of seconds...they'll outlive a second or so drop...

Bearings were the next direction ?

They aren't simulated by the 4 ball, as the 4 ball is steel/steel, not steel on soft metals...the soft metals are chosen to prevent galling/pick-up, and allow a layer of embedability which will push particles away from the journal.

If it's an issue in your race car, then now is the best time to be alive, as in the quest for economy (or lower CO2 depending on your Government's vernacular), engines are being pushed into boundary lubrication more and more frequently.

The new wear tests in the API classifications have been modified to include more boundary, and OTC lubricants are meeting the standards...set by the engine manufacturers.

When these manufacturers do testing to simulate wear in bearings, they don't do it with a 4 ball, they have a rig that nearly always looks like a bearing...with bearing metals.

Other discussions
Here

and

Here

And rather than coming up with an additive or oil recommendation, they are coming up with bearing materials better suited.
http://papers.sae.org/2011-36-0189/
http://www.mahle.com/mahle/en/news-and-p...-conditions.jsp

If you are having issues, I'd start with Mahle bearings coated for boundary, then adopt the Miyagi defence of "best not be there", and choose a lubricant (as I siggested earlier) that's thick enough to hang around a little longer when the pressure drops.

 

[SteveSRT8]

His "summary" was hilarious.

Keep it going, man. This is entertainment at it's finest.

And revealing...

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
His "summary" was hilarious.

Keep it going, man. This is entertainment at it's finest.

And revealing...



Agreed. But he pales in comparison a guy named Sheth Jones- who posted as "1487" over on the old Edmunds Inside Line blog. He was a rabid GM partisan who spent almost all his free time responding to anything he considered an affront to the General.