Alcohol as diesel additive, pros and cons

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I've been thinking about this a bit this morning. If alcohol emulsifies water wouldn't that cause it to get past the water separator and into the pump and injectors causing more harm than good to a diesel engine? I'm having a hard time thinking anything containing alcohol is good for a diesel engine. I don't think it would do the seals in a diesel engine any good either. IIRC some of the old Powerstroke [?] diesel owners manuals warn against using any additives with alcohol in the fuel. I can see it useful in gas, but I'm still learning about diesel.
Some of those older diesel injector pumps didn't have seals which would even cope with ULSD.
I did note that ethanol gasoline blurb I read was quick to point out it contained rust inhibitors. I wondered at the time how much the comment was more about "marketing" or was it the fact that ethanol needed it.


I still can't wrap my head around it emulsifying the water and as a result it getting past the water separator and into the pump and injectors as a good thing. That is the last thing I'd want happening. I think frequently draining the water separator and leaving the additives with alchol out of the fuel is the better thing to do. Now TCW3 might have some benefit in lubing the pump, and something worth considering adding to the fuel. I'm anxious to learn though.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
If you are interested in a long life diesel, additives aren't needed.


Well, in general. But there are those of us that diesel powered equipment is our business and we go to places that are not diesel fuel "friendly". Additives do a wonderful job in addressing water accumulation in fuel at both the buyer source and in fuel tank condensation. It isn't so much about some idea of water getting thru the separator that additives address, as it is ice crystal formation that chokes fuel filters. The de-icing properties of the good additives allows the water separator feature of the fuel filter to do it's job. And it really helps in those wonderful -20F, warm days in the upper midwest. Nice not having ice crystal buildup in fuel filters, though some might enjoy changing fuel filters along side the road. And my last two trucks went to over 1 million miles without major engine repairs, and they got additive in the winter months. So you comment doesn't seem to meet up with reality. As a plus, though maybe not necessary in all applications, the cleaning properties of certain additives is nice preventative to fuel system buildup and injector life. It only costs me, on average, about 2-3 cents a gallon to use additive in my diesel. But it costs me more in time and money to go thru fuel filters like candy, or the $500 minimum cost to have the truck towed in. Each person can be the judge for themselves if it is worth it or not. Generally, I side with certain additive measures, after over 4 million miles of heavy diesel operation experience. On the flip side, I am not for many of the things on the market that pass for fuel "additives". Some of them are akin to snake oil stuff folks add to their engine oil.

 

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I still can't wrap my head around it emulsifying the water and as a result it getting past the water separator and into the pump and injectors as a good thing. That is the last thing I'd want happening. I think frequently draining the water separator and leaving the additives with alchol out of the fuel is the better thing to do. Now TCW3 might have some benefit in lubing the pump, and something worth considering adding to the fuel. I'm anxious to learn though.
We may not have any choice if the diesel is already dosed with alcohol from the pump. It could just be that when we say that "No water was drained from my water trap", the reason wasn't because there was zero water in the fuel, it was because the resident additives have already solubilized it.
I'm speculating of course but I point to the fact that Techron D MSDS lists an alcohol.
Isn't this more than suggestive that Techron diesel at the pump also has alcohol?
I think I'm right in saying that alcohol will absorb up to a certain amount of water. Above that it becomes saturated, the surplus water remaining at the bottom of the vessel/tank/etc. Therefore when alcohol soaks up a water drop, it spreads that drop "thinly" throughout the entire system. If this water is fragmented in this way, the question is hasn't it lost all its' power to do what water does,, rust?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur
We may not have any choice if the diesel is already dosed with alcohol from the pump. It could just be that when we say that "No water was drained from my water trap", the reason wasn't because there was zero water in the fuel, it was because the resident additives have already solubilized it.


Great point. If the diesel fuel is dosed from the pump and has a small amount of alcohol in it, then adding more to it might be a waste, and possibly harmful to the pump and injectors. I think it would be great to know if that's the case, and could save money on the additive.

 

[totegoat]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Excalibur
We may not have any choice if the diesel is already dosed with alcohol from the pump. It could just be that when we say that "No water was drained from my water trap", the reason wasn't because there was zero water in the fuel, it was because the resident additives have already solubilized it.


Great point. If the diesel fuel is dosed from the pump and has a small amount of alcohol in it, then adding more to it might be a waste, and possibly harmful to the pump and injectors. I think it would be great to know if that's the case, and could save money on the additive.


I think you are on the right track.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Excalibur
We may not have any choice if the diesel is already dosed with alcohol from the pump. It could just be that when we say that "No water was drained from my water trap", the reason wasn't because there was zero water in the fuel, it was because the resident additives have already solubilized it.


Great point. If the diesel fuel is dosed from the pump and has a small amount of alcohol in it, then adding more to it might be a waste, and possibly harmful to the pump and injectors. I think it would be great to know if that's the case, and could save money on the additive.


I think you are on the right track.


Thanks, I've been doing a lot of reading, and asking people who own rigs or repair diesel vehicles. For the most part they aren't fans of pouring anything out of a bottle with alcohol in their tanks. I still have a lot to learn though.

 

[Excalibur]

Logically, if alcohols are added, then there's no need to add it again. It would be a case of "more is not better". A fuel company is likely to add it to deal with x amount of water condensate and x amount of cleaning duty. The figure is going to be based on a normal range of operating conditions, not extremes.
BTW, I see on another thread a method of testing for alcohol content (for gasoline):

Originally Posted By: tony1679

Simple, pour "x" amount of water into a graduated cylinder. Note where the water level is. Then add "y" amount of fuel. Seal and shake, then wait 1 minute. Water and gasoline do not mix, so if the water level rises it means ethanol is present. Obviously this is the simple explanation, and this is not exactly scientific, but it gives you an idea. With a little math you can actually test the percentage of ethanol, if present.

The difficulty with this test on diesel is probably going to be the minute amount it is speculated to have. The question is would .2% show up for example? Test equipment would need to be good to register??

 

[TiredTrucker]

I am trying to figure out what locations are dosing diesel with alcohol. I am not aware of any. I fuel from Nebraska to Ohio, throughout the year, to the tune of around 20,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and I am not aware of any location that is dosing diesel with alcohol. Gas, yes. If anyone can confirm a location is dosing with diesel alcohol, then post it so we can all avoid it. I have no problem with ethanol in my gas, but diesel is quite another issue. I can't see any reasoning behind doing it. And if there is no real reason to do it, why would a station operator waste time and money to do it. We live in a strange world.

 

[ironman_gq]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: totegoat
If you are interested in a long life diesel, additives aren't needed.


Unless you have a mechanical injector pump like a Bosch VP44. In that case an additive to make sure there is proper lubricity might be helpful like 2 cycle oil. While diesel should have the needed lubricity additives, I am not sure many people verify and it will really only effect the older mechanical injector pumps.

The 2 cycle oil is 10 cents/ounce. For me thats $3 per fill-up (30 gallons of diesel). The VP44 is $2500.


The Bosch CP4 pump in the newer Ford 6.7 and GM 6.6 require a wear score that isn't even possible on US diesel, they had to revise the pump to make it handle the poor lubricant qualities of the fuel. Additive absolutely leads to longer injection pump and injector life on all newer diesels. The older mechanical pumps were much more forgiving on the fuel quality used.

 

[Excalibur]

TT thanks for posting. Please advise what the additives are that go into the diesel you haul? I read with interest your earlier
post about injecting aditives in the fuel stream, lights coming on etc, all by a card swipe system. I'm fascinated.

I've been doing some more study on Chevron group of companies, namely Texaco, Caltex and Chevron branded diesel.
I found some interesting information.

Techron D concentrate MSDS ingredients:

Hydrotreated light distillates 40 -70%
2 -ethyhexyl nitrate 10 -30%
Branched alkanol 1 - 4.9%

According to Techron.com:

Techron® D
Exclusively available at Caltex stations in Asia Pacific and Africa, diesel with Techron® D contains an exclusive additive,
specially formulated for diesel engines, that controls deposits, helps maintain fuel injector cleanliness and enables optimum
engine performance. Techron D is proven to clean injectors, protects against corrosion and foams less for a cleaner, faster,
fill. Techron D is not available at Chevron or Texaco stations.

I read where Caltex fuels are sold in 60 countries worldwide. Interesting, Caltex Australia sells diesel under the Vortex brand. I was
able to find a Vortex diesel injector cleaner MSDS which also listed alcohol max 5%.
I searched for Chevron diesel no.2 and found this MSDS ingredients:

Diesel fuel no.2 95 -100%
Fatty Acid Methyl Esters 0 -5%
Alkanes C10-C20 Branched & linear 0 -0.5%
Total sulfur 0 -0.5%
Naphalene 0.02 - 0.2%

Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME) are a type of fatty acid ester that are derived by transesterification of fats with methanol. The molecules in biodiesel are primarily FAMEs, usually obtained
from vegetable oils by transesterification. They are used to produce detergents and biodiesel. FAMES are typically produced by an alkali-catalyzed reaction between fats and methanol in the presence of base such as sodium hydroxide or sodium methoxide.

According to European standards EN 14214, biodiesel can have up to .2% residual methanol from the production process. This could mean that Chevron no.2 could have a
small amount of methanol.. .01%. This assumes the maximums.

The Techron D concentrate alcohol content range when compared to the amount of diesel fuel it doses, amounts to about .006% to .25%
at max.

Chevron diesel no.2 can have up to 5% FAME, so a 20gal tank could have 1gal FAME.

I hope this is interesting. It was fun reading up on it.

 

[TiredTrucker]

I don't haul fuel anymore. What the folks are doing and using now is probably different that what was going on when I was doing it several years ago. But residual alcohols from diesel fuel production is one thing, but purposely adding some form of alcohol at the fuel terminal or at the pump is a bizarre concept I have never seen or heard of. And that was the focus of this thread. I see no evidence of alcohols being actively used as a diesel fuel additive. There may be trace alcohol in some diesel fuel additives, but when they are typically dosed at fraction of oz per gallon of fuel, it is a non issue and doesn't make a blip on the radar. Most diesel fuel additives specifically claim they contain no alcohols.

 

[Excalibur]

TT, thanks for the points of view.

I'm not aware of any fuel stations adding alcohol either though my perspective of this thread isn't focused on that aspect. Each reader no doubt will be relating the thread to their own situation. 99% of folk will be looking at any pluses or minuses to adding alcohols to a readymade diesel product however I make my own diesel by recycling and refining waste hydrocarbon using the age old manufacturing methods refineries use.
I crack diesel from plastic or oil using basic distillation principles. Therefore I have a product that is completely raw, with no additives of any kind. Firstly I want to understand the basics of additives that work, why they work and what the parameters are.
I haven't decided about alcohol yet though it has shown promise in early testing using .2% on the main problem I am battling with ... gum deposits.
With regard to the historical perspective of fuel companies diesel additives that were used 50 years ago or even in 1920's, it would be infinitely better to use them than nothing.

 

[Shannow]

Excalibur, I'm fascinated by your process (are you smokeonthequarter ???).


I came across some commentary on WVO being problematic as the animal fats that are cooked into it are long term immiscible, so have been messing with the Christmas roast fat (duck and pork) and used engine and vegetable oil.

The fat certainly drags carbon and junk to the bottom...might do similarly with a sample of your diesel maybe ?

Fuel Doctor certainly blurs the line between oil/fat with it's detergent action. After sitting overnight, it's almost an emulsion, by mid-day has cleared to a "layer cake"

 

[Excalibur]

Yes. The process has taken time to develop. For the most part the principles are age old. I'm having to do a lot of study. Thankfully Mr.Google has been helping.

I ran WVO for a number of years. I seem to recall reports of WMO/WVO blends causing glue and goop I think was the terms used.
During my time using WVO, I had to twice clean the diesel tank using caustic soda!

Fuel Doctors is an interesting one. I like to get my hands on some for testing.
Sadly my local Supercheap stores don't stock it. Seems to be Australia wide but not here.
The price sounds OK at 1c per liter dose rate. MSDS shows 30 -60% Ethoxylated alcohol.
Please keep me informed of the trials. A pic would be great, especially showing/comparing the progressive stages.