Honda not recommending 0W20 in all 5W20 apps

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


I've come to the same conclusion as fdcg27, but the other way around.

It's pointless throwing a perfectly good engine to the crusher at the end of it's useful life, so any (slight) reduction in longevity at a savings of fuel (and Carbon emissions if you are in Europe or Japan) is a reasonable trade-off on nearly all levels.

As Honda say about their push for low viscosity
* Economy
* Greenhouse emissions
* adequate engine life.

No manufacturer is going to make a recommendation that results in a "pile of failed engines" ....


Which begs the question.... What is the expected life of a modern car running a 20 grade oil...?

Is it 150 000 miles , or more... or less. Is the warranty period the expected life... or the warranty plus 50% ... ?

There is NOTHING in an ultra long lasting engine for the manufacturer... they need to sell more cars, not brag about how long their engines last.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: geeman789


Which begs the question.... What is the expected life of a modern car running a 20 grade oil...?

Is it 150 000 miles , or more... or less. Is the warranty period the expected life... or the warranty plus 50% ... ?

There is NOTHING in an ultra long lasting engine for the manufacturer... they need to sell more cars, not brag about how long their engines last.



You can pretty much bet your engine will simply outlast your automotive body these days, period (or an easy 15~25 yrs for utilitarian, mass-produced gasoline non-turbo type of engines).

I've been servicing gasoline NA engines for 2+decades now, and I have yet to come across 1 single instance where engine die prematurely due to "thin" oil (mind you though, when I started out as mech, oil weights were around 5W30 being on the "thin" side of things, and then 5W20 and so on.

Esp. on oil related bearing failure: I've not seen/encounter 1 single instance of it at all, other than mechanical defects and/or other non-lubrication related issues.

Almost all of the cars that were under my "wings" passed along due to (a) rusts; (b) parts availability issues, such as Suzuki Jimmy 4WD, carb'ed 3cyl Suzuki, Daihatsu Charade, etc. (c) owners got sick and tired of their cars autobody (esp. paint in early 90s, incl. my Mazda B6 block) issues, such as paint peeling, rusts, etc.

All of them engines passed local annual emissions testings and in otherwise good working order.

In summary: as much as you'd like to throw in your conspiracy theory RE: manufacturers try to sell more cars to you, in reality, I've not seen any premature engine failures so far.

You may also ask our residence senior mech Trav and see if he'd concur with such understanding?

Q.

 

[ledslinger]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
Originally Posted By: Shannow


I've come to the same conclusion as fdcg27, but the other way around.

It's pointless throwing a perfectly good engine to the crusher at the end of it's useful life, so any (slight) reduction in longevity at a savings of fuel (and Carbon emissions if you are in Europe or Japan) is a reasonable trade-off on nearly all levels.

As Honda say about their push for low viscosity
* Economy
* Greenhouse emissions
* adequate engine life.

No manufacturer is going to make a recommendation that results in a "pile of failed engines" ....


Which begs the question.... What is the expected life of a modern car running a 20 grade oil...?

Is it 150 000 miles , or more... or less. Is the warranty period the expected life... or the warranty plus 50% ... ?

There is NOTHING in an ultra long lasting engine for the manufacturer... they need to sell more cars, not brag about how long their engines last.



"Which begs the question.... What is the expected life of a modern car running a 20 grade oil...?"

Much like life going on "long after the thrill of living is gone," engines last well beyond the ride enhancing probability of picking up babes. This holds true only when using 0W20, 5W20 or 5W30. All bets are off if other viscosity oils are used, even 0W30.

 

[fdcg27]

You make a good point in that anything that will pump will keep the main bearings happy.
What about the cam lobes and lifters on an OHC engine?
What about the sometimes fussy hydraulic lifters with any engine that uses them?
I really don't know that thin equals better flow to these parts in real cold, but it seems that beyond the crank bearings, for those parts that are remote from them and for those parts that rely upon splash or spray for lubrication, it would.
Of course, the cold oil regime doesn't last very long with any running engine.
Things warm up pretty quickly even in very cold ambients.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
Originally Posted By: Shannow


I've come to the same conclusion as fdcg27, but the other way around.

It's pointless throwing a perfectly good engine to the crusher at the end of it's useful life, so any (slight) reduction in longevity at a savings of fuel (and Carbon emissions if you are in Europe or Japan) is a reasonable trade-off on nearly all levels.

As Honda say about their push for low viscosity
* Economy
* Greenhouse emissions
* adequate engine life.

No manufacturer is going to make a recommendation that results in a "pile of failed engines" ....


Which begs the question.... What is the expected life of a modern car running a 20 grade oil...?

Is it 150 000 miles , or more... or less. Is the warranty period the expected life... or the warranty plus 50% ... ?

There is NOTHING in an ultra long lasting engine for the manufacturer... they need to sell more cars, not brag about how long their engines last.



I've had two pre-2000 engines past 200k miles that ran on 5w30. We sold the car because after 15 years of use, I was tired of the same ol' beater and wanted something new. Car body was fine (Florida owned) and engine ran like a top. Our 98 Camry V6 is still going strong with 260k on the clock for the second owner (I still service the car). That engine showed high bearing wear at 190k and I thought the engine was calling it quits. She's still purring just fine 70k later and I expect it to hit 300k easy.

My 2007 Civic EX had 150k on it when it was totaled. Engine was spotless and ran flawlessly on 5w20 (the recommended viscosity) and I expected to keep that car for many years and 300k but it never made it.

My point is, I don't see your average daily beaters giving up due to w20 oils. Oils are stronger and engines are built better. I think they can handle it.

I feel that fuel dilution causing viscosity to drop to 0w10 "might" be causing extra wear but don't enough to cause engine failure for the first or second owner.

 

[Lex94]

Engineered life of a car = 150K miles.
Engineered life of pickup truck = 225K miles.

 

[kschachn]

I'd love to see that analysis in print somewhere.

Originally Posted By: Lex94
Engineered life of a car = 150K miles.
Engineered life of pickup truck = 225K miles.

 

[Lex94]

I would like to see those Esso videos updated with todays GF-5/SN oils....

 

[kschachn]

So you just made those numbers up?

Originally Posted By: Lex94
I would like to see those Esso videos updated with todays GF-5/SN oils....

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Lex94
I would like to see those Esso videos updated with todays GF-5/SN oils....

...Or even low HTHS oils of the day. I believe all the oils they tested for the video were HDEOs.

 

[Lex94]

Makes me want to get a bottle of Rotella T5 10w30 and put it in the freezer....

 

[Lex94]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you just made those numbers up?

Originally Posted By: Lex94
I would like to see those Esso videos updated with todays GF-5/SN oils....


Sure did! Cuz thats what engineers do!

Read it in fleet literature a couple years ago...I think from ford.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Lex94
Engineered life of a car = 150K miles.
Engineered life of pickup truck = 225K miles.

Should I rebuild my 21 years old 37x,xxx miles Lexus LS400 ? It's running well without any problem but it passed the life expectancy by 220,000 miles.

 

[kschachn]

Speak for yourself, I'm an engineer and I don't make things up.

Originally Posted By: Lex94
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you just made those numbers up?

Sure did! Cuz thats what engineers do!

Read it in fleet literature a couple years ago...I think from ford.

 

[Lex94]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Engineered life of a car = 150K miles.
Engineered life of pickup truck = 225K miles.

Should I rebuild my 21 years old 37x,xxx miles Lexus LS400 ? It's running well without any problem but it passed the life expectancy by 220,000 miles.


A specific car that was specifically built to be durable..In California....
Do you think that is typical?

 

[Lex94]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Speak for yourself, I'm an engineer and I don't make things up.

Originally Posted By: Lex94
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you just made those numbers up?

Sure did! Cuz thats what engineers do!

Read it in fleet literature a couple years ago...I think from ford.


Do you not understand sarcasm?

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
If you tore apart engines for a living the past past 45 years, (thousands and thousands) you wouldnt be using a 0W-20 ever. not going to start a war. just the facts. "Other than cold start cranking, the thicker oils make the engines last longer and look better at teardown" PERIOD


THANKS-couldn't agree more---now there are 2 of us

 

[LotI]

Originally Posted By: steve20
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
If you tore apart engines for a living the past past 45 years, (thousands and thousands) you wouldnt be using a 0W-20 ever. not going to start a war. just the facts. "Other than cold start cranking, the thicker oils make the engines last longer and look better at teardown" PERIOD


THANKS-couldn't agree more---now there are 2 of us

0w-50 for everyone!