Myths of the Multi Vehicle ATF - 2013 article link

[tommygunn]

Originally Posted By: Icecube
I was surprised that the CVT and DCT have increased so much in 5 years...

What about fluid for MT? Do we know if multi vehicle fluids are also an issue?


Increasing CVT usage should be no surprise at all due to fuel economy concerns.

Ford and VW have been pushing the DCT heavily as well.

MT fluid isn't nearly as big of an issue because most manual transmission fluids don't ever need to be changed (they don't get as hot as automatics get), many of them use automatic transmission fluid, and the ones that don't just use gear oil or motor oil. Manual transmissions aren't nearly as complicated as autos. And also the market share of manuals is really, really small.

 

[Sayjac]

Saw this thread started yesterday and was waiting for Mola to weigh in on the topic and link. His post and points says what I need to know regarding the link.

My first thought though, I wonder if Afton makes or has any relationship to oem fluids. And in 2011 52% used Dex/Merc, I'm thinking the MultiVehicle fluids have little difficulty meeting that spec and performing as well or better than D/M.

As for waning MV ATF use, don't think that represents what I've read regarding Bitog use. Personal anecdotes, used MaxLife in two Hondas specing Z1 and a Toyota specing Dex II-III with success, no issues. Recently switched one Honda to Castrol IMV just to give it a try and it's worked well too.

Now for CVT, that's another topic. Most of the Multi Vehicle ATF I've checked 'except' them on suitable/recommended for list. So there's no deception, if one can read it's straight up. And 2015, they only project to 8% of use.

My .02

 

[splinter]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Interesting in comparison to the 2006 Valvoline Presentation that Molakule introduced...
Excellent information, thanks.

Interesting takeaway:
Quote:
MERCON® V and DEXRON®-VI are not viscometrically compatible.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn

Increasing CVT usage should be no surprise at all due to fuel economy concerns.

Ford and VW have been pushing the DCT heavily as well.

MT fluid isn't nearly as big of an issue because most manual transmission fluids don't ever need to be changed (they don't get as hot as automatics get), many of them use automatic transmission fluid, and the ones that don't just use gear oil or motor oil. Manual transmissions aren't nearly as complicated as autos. And also the market share of manuals is really, really small.


ATF in an MTX is no longer a thing.

 

[tommygunn]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
ATF in an MTX is no longer a thing.


Sure it is. For example, many Chrysler manual transmissions call for ATF+4. Doesn't the Tremec TR6060 use Dexron-VI?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Originally Posted By: badtlc
ATF in an MTX is no longer a thing.


Sure it is. For example, many Chrysler manual transmissions call for ATF+4. Doesn't the Tremec TR6060 use Dexron-VI?


Nope. Chrysler doesn't even offer an MTX.

 

[Whitewolf]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A couple of things here:

1. Any Afton rep has a stake in his company's control of the DexVI formulation and licensing. They developed this fluid in concert with GM.


However both Infineum and Lubrizol now have licenced DEXRON-VI products. Also DEXRON-VI was not developed exclusively with Afton, it was a level playing field for all to compete but Afton happened to come first in meeting the targets set by GM.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A couple of things here:

1. Any Afton rep has a stake in his company's control of the DexVI formulation and licensing. They developed this fluid in concert with GM.


However both Infineum and Lubrizol now have licenced DEXRON-VI products. Also DEXRON-VI was not developed exclusively with Afton, it was a level playing field for all to compete but Afton happened to come first in meeting the targets set by GM.


Infineum and Lubrizol have licensed it from Afton.

Afton's first iteration came closest, but subsequent tuning/tweaking of the DexronVI formulation required a lot of communications between GM and Afton.

 

[Whitewolf]

The communication was equal to all.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Afton's first iteration came closest, but subsequent tuning/tweaking of the DexronVI formulation required a lot of communications between GM and Afton.

Petro-Canada also seems to like taking a great deal of credit for the development of Dexron-VI. Of course, I don't know how true that is, but I suspect they are certainly well placed in Canada to provide the service fill.

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Originally Posted By: badtlc
ATF in an MTX is no longer a thing.


Sure it is. For example, many Chrysler manual transmissions call for ATF+4. Doesn't the Tremec TR6060 use Dexron-VI?


Nope. Chrysler doesn't even offer an MTX.


Not sure if it's relevant to this post but I thought it was odd that my Saturn 1.9 called for Dexron III (now apparently GM recommends Dexron VI). When I pulled the transmission out of the parts car and red fluid came out, the first thought I had was "some moron put ATF in a manual", my only experience was with older Honda manuals that called for Honda MTF which is kinda similar to 10w-40 oil.

I run Mobil Multi Vehicle synthetic ATF in both my Saturn 1.9 manual transmissions and they shift as smooth as butter.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Afton's first iteration came closest, but subsequent tuning/tweaking of the DexronVI formulation required a lot of communications between GM and Afton.

Petro-Canada also seems to like taking a great deal of credit for the development of Dexron-VI. Of course, I don't know how true that is, but I suspect they are certainly well placed in Canada to provide the service fill.


In most cases where corporate fluid development occurs, the OEM (in this case GM), the additive supplier (in this case Afton), and the Blender (in this case PetroCanada) work closely to tweak the final product and bring it to market.

It was the chemists at Afton that developed the final and subsequent DexronVI formulations. By subsequent, I mean they also developed many DexronVI type formulations for the Japanese and European markets as well.

 

[Garak]

Thanks for that clarification. As I said, PC trumpets their accomplishment. Notably, I haven't looked that close at the Afton or PC handbooks lately. Maybe they collaborated on the wording, as well.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan


Not sure if it's relevant to this post but I thought it was odd that my Saturn 1.9 called for Dexron III (now apparently GM recommends Dexron VI). When I pulled the transmission out of the parts car and red fluid came out, the first thought I had was "some moron put ATF in a manual", my only experience was with older Honda manuals that called for Honda MTF which is kinda similar to 10w-40 oil.

I run Mobil Multi Vehicle synthetic ATF in both my Saturn 1.9 manual transmissions and they shift as smooth as butter.


ATF was spec'd before lower viscosity MTFs became available. Redline has a great paper on why you DON'T use an ATF or motor oil in an MTX. Mola has some good posts about it, too.

If your car calls for API SJ oil, are you going to avoid using API SN oils? Things improve for applications. GM now specs a synchromesh fluid for the MTXs, not ATF.